The reports I’ve heard are that he was a legal worker, he’d been over here a couple of years, and he was totally 100% legit. I don’t think immigration was the key in this, apparently he was just on his way to work. There’s a Brazillian envoy on route to the UK to chew Jack Straws arse off from what I can gather. But as is often the case, there’s so much contradictory reporting going on it’s probably better to wait until the inquiry is completed, or at least ‘til all the facts are disclosed and verified.
I know there will be an inquiry and all, but the police released a statement today saying that the man was innocent. Not that he was associated with terrorists or anything, but that he was innocent. Just for the record.
Yep it’s the first stage of damage control. There is some concern now that people are not going to have complete trust in the security services.
Do we know who did the shooting yet ? I heard that we’ll only be told the result of the enquiry if it was a Met (police) officer who pulled the trigger, but that if it was some secret-squirrel officer, it would be classified. Not sure if thats true or not.
Yep it’s the first stage of damage control. There is some concern now that people are not going to have complete trust in the security services.
Do we know who did the shooting yet ? I heard that we’ll only be told the result of the enquiry if it was a Met (police) officer who pulled the trigger, but that if it was some secret-squirrel officer, it would be classified. Not sure if thats true or not.
I believe it’s part of the specialist anti-terror response unit who did the shooting, they’re a specialist team derived from the Tactical Response Unit, I’d imagine the shooter will be afforded privacy, given he’s in a politically sensitive role, it’d be unlikely they’d name him. It’s ironic I mentioned Gibralta when this first occured, it looks like the same thing will happen, the SAS guys got taken to court for shooting KNOWN IRA terrorists, and this fella was innocent by all accounts. The ministry of defence had to get an injunction against the court giving the soldiers identities away, as it was a breach of national security, I’d imagine the same will happen with the copper who did the shooting Friday.
Having said that, the SAS did shoot one of the terrorists 53 times, which is overkill in anyones book.
See? This is PRECISELY why we need to take a moderate approach. If this guy was truly innocent, then he’s another victim of the terrorists.
And when the moderate approach allows a homicide bomber to push the plunger and murder a dozen or so cops and civilians then I guess we’ll be twelve times as justified in calling for a hard line approach again, yes/no?
I hope this event makes some people start reconsidering their approach. I swear to god too many people here have read far too many Tom Clancy novels.
You’ve got a guy with the correct look (skin color, facial features and hair type - ie/all the witnesses thought he looked Muslim too) and age group of a suicide bomber wearing a bulky overcoat in the middle of July who’s running from police towards a crowded subway car or platform who had been followed out of the home of a terrorist and you think anyone who might mistake this gent for a terrorist has been reading too much Tom Clancy? :shock:
Look, it sucks that what would appear to be a genuinely inocent has happened - the guy made some rather sever wardrobe mistakes that day, happened to be living in or visiting a bad home and decided to run from the cops. His family says he spoke excellent English so it’s not like he couldn’t understand them. He’s lived and worked in England for three years now so it’s not like he’s an alien to the culture and he was there legally so he really had no cause to run. The poor guy made some really bad mistakes and they got him killed.
But then again there hasn’t been that much time for a full background check and investigation - while his family did claim that he was a good Catholic, the family of one of the suicide bombers from the first attack swore that he never visited any terrorist training camps and were (supposedly) so clueless to the fact that he was a suicide bomber that they reported him among the MIA/KIA for that day - for all we know, his relatives in South America 5000 miles away might not be up to date on him having joined Al Queda. Recall that one of the first group of terrorists was apparently Jamican - I’m sure his family was tad surprised to hear his last words were “Death to dah infeedels Mon!” :shock:
Just announced that he was working hear illegally...he probably thought immigation officers where after him. This story does not get any better with the passing of time.
The building that he walked out of was a multi story flat? With how many units in it? You say the cops were in plain clothes and did not send verbal warnings of who they were? Do we know if he jumped the turnstile after the “cops” gave chase? I guess the poor kid just thought he was being chased down by a bunch of thugs. This was Stockwell Tube station correct? I used to get off at Stockwell every day when I was younger. Not a nice part of town, alot of un-savory types in the area.
Yee-haa, I can now access the new forum at work for the first time.
Stockwell isn’t too bad, it’s ten mins up the road from where I am sitting at work, and I have to go up there for work often. There are actually some nice pockets around there, not far from the tube.
I believe he’d gotten a bus to the tube at Stockwell. Why didn’t they pick him up before then, or just ask him stuff ? Why was it ok for the guy to potentially blow up the bus.
Before we knew he was working illegally I gave that as a reason he may have run. I don’t think it makes it any better.
His cousin (the guy who’s flat he left) asks why they let him get on the bus. He was apparently (according to the cousin) confronted by Tube staff, had a heated discussion, but they allowed him to walk to a platform. Then “he got a stationary train”.
Why did he think he was in trouble if the Tube staff had let him go ? Unless they considered it too dangerous to confront him further ?
Yee-haa, I can now access the new forum at work for the first time.
Stockwell isn’t too bad, it’s ten mins up the road from where I am sitting at work, and I have to go up there for work often. There are actually some nice pockets around there, not far from the tube.
I believe he’d gotten a bus to the tube at Stockwell. Why didn’t they pick him up before then, or just ask him stuff ? Why was it ok for the guy to potentially blow up the bus.
Before we knew he was working illegally I gave that as a reason he may have run. I don’t think it makes it any better.
His cousin (the guy who’s flat he left) asks why they let him get on the bus. He was apparently (according to the cousin) confronted by Tube staff, had a heated discussion, but they allowed him to walk to a platform. Then “he got a stationary train”.
Why did he think he was in trouble if the Tube staff had let him go ? Unless they considered it too dangerous to confront him further ?
*shrugs*
God knows, it sounds like a whole bunch of weird circumstances, what are the chances he was an illegal? What are the chances he’d leg it when confronted? What are the chances he would be in a surveillence area?
Given the climate and circumstances I can’t blame the police, unless there was a break down in the arrest protocol, ie they didn’t mention they were actually police.
I think the three important things we need to find out before we can judge are
(a) what warning was he given
(b) why was that location chosen to make a ‘soft arrest’
(c) what was his confrontation with the tube staff about, and why was he allowed to proceed to the platform
A witness on the tube platform (Mr Lee Ruston) said that the people chasing him only pulled on baseball caps with Police written on them while they were chasing the guy, and they shouted no warnings. Unless the guy had time to turn around, he wouldn’t have known who they were. Maybe he owed some money and was past his last warning ?
Ruston: “I was very near to them and I never heard anyone say the word Police”
Ruston also said that the chasers were wearing a tracksuit, jeans, and a suit. Not exactly clothes that make you think ‘the authorities are after me’.
But hey, he did something ILLEGAL, so he clearly deserved to die........
Of course the police were wearing street clothes...THEY WERE PLAIN CLOTHES OFFICERS.
My guess is that they identified themselves as police when they attempted to arrest him before he ran. I highly doubt they just started running at the guy and waving guns all about.
You keep focusing on the fact that he wasn’t a terrorist and therefor the cops did something wrong. What if he was a terrorist? What if all other factors were identical except he was a terrorist. Then what? Would you then change your mind?
Of course the police were wearing street clothes...THEY WERE PLAIN CLOTHES OFFICERS.
My guess is that they identified themselves as police when they attempted to arrest him before he ran. I highly doubt they just started running at the guy and waving guns all about.
You keep focusing on the fact that he wasn’t a terrorist and therefor the cops did something wrong. What if he was a terrorist? What if all other factors were identical except he was a terrorist. Then what? Would you then change your mind?
Nah I’m focusing on the information that is slowly emerging. Not your guesses, which are contradicted by the evidence we have available so far. Running at the guy and waving guns all about is what the witnesses are saying.
I’m not saying anyone did anything wrong yet. But there are a number of areas where answers are needed to questions.
What would define him as a terrorist ? What factors would need to be different to make him one ? What he was carrying ? Intelligence on his past ? Be specific.
Just wait for the enquiry and stop acting like a bunch of armchair conspiracy theorists....the news is just too fluid.
Changed your tune haven’t ya !
As I see it, our job here is to assess and discuss the info as it comes in. Sure, nobody can make definitive statements on the overall situation, but we can ask questions and discuss links.
Conspiracy theory ? Where ? Outline my conspiracy theories.
Do I live for them ? Um, I’m really not sure what you are talking about. Do you want to try again ?
Probably most likely what happened is with the bombings so fresh in memory, adreniline took over in the cops. These things tend to alter people’s perspectives for a time, after 9/11, it seemed there were terror cells all over ready to strike. After the Anthrax mail scare, any mysterious powder would scrub air flights. Etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if that kind of thinking took over here. I think law enforcement needs to refine the ‘shoot to kill’ policy better. Having an expired visa or jumping turnstiles or wearing a long coat shouldn’t be grounds enough.
I agree, it certainly needs to be re-defined, unless this officer went all trigger-happy and didn’t follow procedure. Then it’s on him. And importantly this wasn’t a heat-of-the-moment decision. They had followed him for at least 20 minutes or so, probably more depending on the walk from the flat in Tulse Hill to the bus stop, and the wait for a bus. Their story at the moment doesn’t make much sense (as it’s being reported anyway). And now we have 8 shots while he while restrained. What the hell is that ?!
Sounds like adreniline taking over. If you are chasing someone for 20 minutes, worried that he might detonate something, and finally catch up with him, I could just imagine. Kind of like the Rodney King beating. King put up such a resistance, that when they were finally able subdued him, they probably overreacted.
