I think you have made some good points Sir Not. However.....
We spend billions of dollars on “smart” weapons in order to reduce the number of civilian casualties and collateral damage.
I feel this is highly grotesque and unnecessary, especially as the American, British and the so called coalition of the willing fail to realise that blowing up the enemy will not ‘win the war on terror’. They are missing the point; it is a war of ideology- and however hard you try you cannot ‘blow up’ an idea. Try spending the money is areas that need it the most, areas within your own country.
The difference between us and those we are fighting is that we do not target civilians. They do.
That is a good point and one that is not mentioned enough in my opinion. However, when civilians are caught in the cross-fire I don’t think its much conciliation for the families whether their son, daughters etc weren’t targeted or not. I don’t know about you but if someone blew up one of my relatives/mates it would make me want to exact revenge, accident or no accident.
But let me ask you… would you sacrifice your own life to make sure that the girl’s sister never had to endure a rape room? Would you be willing to kill a Republican Guard so that her brother would never be whipped and hung by his wrists in raw sewage? Why do you value the lives of men would perpetrate evil acts over the lives of the innocent?
I think all people would agree that Saddam was a callous soul and the world is surely better off without him. But why do our governments make a sing and dance about it in some countries then turn a blind eye in others. I believe everyone on some level knows that Iraq was really about profit, however much they sugar-coat themselves.
I feel this is highly grotesque and unnecessary, especially as the American, British and the so called coalition of the willing fail to realise that blowing up the enemy will not ‘win the war on terror’. They are missing the point; it is a war of ideology- and however hard you try you cannot ‘blow up’ an idea. Try spending the money is areas that need it the most, areas within your own country.
And since you took the time to address my points civilly, I will return the courtesy. The point of Iraq was to eliminate a state sponsor of terror who was believed by all, both those in the coalition and those who opposed it, to posess WMD. This is a dangerous combination. We went there to oust a regime that was in violation of UN resolutions and who sponsored militant extremists. While there may not have been any direct links to 9/11 and Al Qaeda, there were ties to other terror organizations. And by taking Hussein out of the picture, we were able to cripple a source of funding and sanctuary for those who would do harm to us and our allies. Taking a brutal dictator out was a side benefit.
That is a good point and one that is not mentioned enough in my opinion. However, when civilians are caught in the cross-fire I don’t think its much conciliation for the families whether their son, daughters etc weren’t targeted or not. I don’t know about you but if someone blew up one of my relatives/mates it would make me want to exact revenge, accident or no accident.
I woun’t dispute that, but I will say that just because there are undesired side effects does not mean that in the end good will come. Look at it like chemotherapy. When you go through it, it is a nasty, painful experience. You lose your hair. You are weak and nausious. You are killing off healthy tissue along with the cancerous. You are essentially subjected to radiation poisoning. But in the end, the cancer is gone and you can go on to live a normal, healthy life. No one here would wish harm on an innocent. Only a monster would. And if there were a way to eliminate an evil regime without taking a single innocent life, I would take that option. But how do you do it? Sanctions didn’t work. Threats didn’t work. What else could we have done?
I think all people would agree that Saddam was a callous soul and the world is surely better off without him. But why do our governments make a sing and dance about it in some countries then turn a blind eye in others. I believe everyone on some level knows that Iraq was really about profit, however much they sugar-coat themselves.
It goes beyond callous. Saddam Hussein is evil. Pure, unadulterated evil who was hell bent on maintaining his own power at the expense of his people. And we tackled this one problem first. Does that mean that we don’t care about the other evil men in the world? Not at all. But right now, our military is stretched thin. We can only be in so many places at one time. Would I like to do something about the genocide taking place in Africa? Absolutely. But right now, we simply do not have the resources. Before we could handle any other situation, we would need some time to allow our armed forced to recouperate. And I think that the profit motive is a little, well, knee jerk. We have spent some $400 billion on this war to date. Do you honestly believe that the president, ANY president, would spend that kind of money just to make a few hundred million for some friends? He could have done that just by diverting more government contracts to them.
Honestly Michael, try changing your method of operation here. If you spent time reading threads in the General Discussion or Hangout you’d find out that not everyone here is a rabid raving right-wing lunatic, and there are even some liberals such as me (although the numbers have dropped off over the past few months). And even if they were loons, why would they bother responding to such aggression anyway ? If you involved yourself calmly in conversations and postulated carefully worded questions that are free of emotive traps, then you may find people will take the time and effort to provide decent replies. Don’t dismiss the replies you have got as ‘what you expected’ - they are largely because of the style you have adopted. People can disagree with you (even on the big issues) and still be rational and reasonable human beings. But you’ll only discover their side of the argument if you leave them room to provide responses, and not scatter-gun them with numerous vague questions. It doesn’t do either side any good.
It is always good to have new posters arrive, no matter what their political persuasion is. But only if they help to maintain a pleasant tone and wish to actually have a discussion, not a rant. And only if they are able to differentiate what is their opinion and what is fact.
Just a few thoughts. Take them or leave them.
Yes. Opinion and fact. I think you’re the one with those two meanings mixed up.
I feel this is highly grotesque and unnecessary, especially as the American, British and the so called coalition of the willing fail to realise that blowing up the enemy will not ‘win the war on terror’. They are missing the point; it is a war of ideology- and however hard you try you cannot ‘blow up’ an idea. Try spending the money is areas that need it the most, areas within your own country.
And since you took the time to address my points civilly, I will return the courtesy. The point of Iraq was to eliminate a state sponsor of terror who was believed by all, both those in the coalition and those who opposed it, to posess WMD. This is a dangerous combination. We went there to oust a regime that was in violation of UN resolutions and who sponsored militant extremists. While there may not have been any direct links to 9/11 and Al Qaeda, there were ties to other terror organizations. And by taking Hussein out of the picture, we were able to cripple a source of funding and sanctuary for those who would do harm to us and our allies. Taking a brutal dictator out was a side benefit.
That is a good point and one that is not mentioned enough in my opinion. However, when civilians are caught in the cross-fire I don’t think its much conciliation for the families whether their son, daughters etc weren’t targeted or not. I don’t know about you but if someone blew up one of my relatives/mates it would make me want to exact revenge, accident or no accident.
I woun’t dispute that, but I will say that just because there are undesired side effects does not mean that in the end good will come. Look at it like chemotherapy. When you go through it, it is a nasty, painful experience. You lose your hair. You are weak and nausious. You are killing off healthy tissue along with the cancerous. You are essentially subjected to radiation poisoning. But in the end, the cancer is gone and you can go on to live a normal, healthy life. No one here would wish harm on an innocent. Only a monster would. And if there were a way to eliminate an evil regime without taking a single innocent life, I would take that option. But how do you do it? Sanctions didn’t work. Threats didn’t work. What else could we have done?
I think all people would agree that Saddam was a callous soul and the world is surely better off without him. But why do our governments make a sing and dance about it in some countries then turn a blind eye in others. I believe everyone on some level knows that Iraq was really about profit, however much they sugar-coat themselves.
It goes beyond callous. Saddam Hussein is evil. Pure, unadulterated evil who was hell bent on maintaining his own power at the expense of his people. And we tackled this one problem first. Does that mean that we don’t care about the other evil men in the world? Not at all. But right now, our military is stretched thin. We can only be in so many places at one time. Would I like to do something about the genocide taking place in Africa? Absolutely. But right now, we simply do not have the resources. Before we could handle any other situation, we would need some time to allow our armed forced to recouperate. And I think that the profit motive is a little, well, knee jerk. We have spent some $400 billion on this war to date. Do you honestly believe that the president, ANY president, would spend that kind of money just to make a few hundred million for some friends? He could have done that just by diverting more government contracts to them.
Sir Not Appearing In This Film
Well, I don’t think I’ve ever heard so much drivel in all my life.
Thats surprising, all you do is drivel. You don’t even read the answers that you so seek, all you do is issue challanges. You call many users on this forum, in fact all of them, misguided (and don’t be nitpicky, I don’t mean literally of course) and seek to call us out and make us look like fools yet you aren’t even debating, which is the pesenting of an argument based on solid facts and then continuence of the argument by using facts to justify your opinion, but simply shouting opinions and small fractions of facts as a means to justify your so called argument, facts that can be easily bent and that cannot be proved credible (I.E., fact, this little girl died in Iraq, opinionated version: This little girl died in Iraq because of United States barbarians, case in point facts can be combined with opinions) and yet you call what you are doing debate (not literally of course, dont be nit picky because it doesn’t help your argument at all but makes you look like you are looking for anyway do undermine the opposing party.) If you would be polite and not attempt to undermine people with questions you will not even allowed answered I’m sure many’s disposition toward you would change, however you instead opt to “Troll,” by bombarding a message of hate with no real justification other than pictures and opinions.
Thats surprising, all you do is drivel. You don’t even read the answers that you so seek, all you do is issue challanges. You call many users on this forum, in fact all of them, misguided (and don’t be nitpicky, I don’t mean literally of course) and seek to call us out and make us look like fools yet you aren’t even debating, which is the pesenting of an argument based on solid facts and then continuence of the argument by using facts to justify your opinion, but simply shouting opinions and small fractions of facts as a means to justify your so called argument, facts that can be easily bent and that cannot be proved credible (I.E., fact, this little girl died in Iraq, opinionated version: This little girl died in Iraq because of United States barbarians, case in point facts can be combined with opinions) and yet you call what you are doing debate (not literally of course, dont be nit picky because it doesn’t help your argument at all but makes you look like you are looking for anyway do undermine the opposing party.) If you would be polite and not attempt to undermine people with questions you will not even allowed answered I’m sure many’s disposition toward you would change, however you instead opt to “Troll,” by bombarding a message of hate with no real justification other than pictures and opinions.
That is what I am talking about. You undermine. I made another post with regard to respect garnering respect. If you would be more civil, trust me, you will be answered. You are opinionated, but you do not take into account that some people have oposing beliefs and those beliefs are no more right or wrong than yours. If you would discontinue this circus you would be more respected. Anyways, I will discontinue my arguments as you will no doubt use them as ammo in some form or another. It is worthless to discuss with someone who does not listen, especially one who is unmovable in his belief that the other party is evil, deceaved, etc and will not listen to himself because of this.
That is what I am talking about. You undermine. I made another post with regard to respect garnering respect. If you would be more civil, trust me, you will be answered. You are opinionated, but you do not take into account that some people have oposing beliefs and those beliefs are no more right or wrong than yours. If you would discontinue this circus you would be more respected. Anyways, I will discontinue my arguments as you will no doubt use them as ammo in some form or another. It is worthless to discuss with someone who does not listen, especially one who is unmovable in his belief that the other party is evil, deceaved, etc and will not listen to himself because of this.
Listen it’s the truth that most people here don’t want to hear. It’s nothing to do with me being disrespecful or opinions vs. facts. I will respect certain views if they choose to sit up straight and say: 2+2=4. I find it sad that there’s fellow human beings going around thinking that war brings peace. It’s just not true. And if your opinion rivals the truth, yes, you can have that opinion, but don’t tell me I’m wrong.
The illegal, immoral and pre-emptive strike on the people of Iraq for oil had nothing to do with 9/11. The country is more dangerous as a result. How many people have died as a result of this decision versus the 3,000 who died on 9/11? How many soldiers? For every soldier who dies, that affects perhaps 100 people in some way. This war is one of the biggest mistakes ever and is simply disgusting. To actually support this war is something that cannot be understood, because the reasons people give for the support of the war are simply not valid.
Do YOU think that this war in Iraq will make sure that there will never be a terrorist attack again? Do you think that it will limit terrorist attacks? Do you think it will make the world are more dangerous place?
Despite my saying I would no longer post in regards to this user, I will say this, you’re sort of rightous “I’m right you’re wrong, everything is black and white” mentality is annoying. No wonder you cannot be civil enough to stop. Like I said, you have no respect for anothers opinions. I have many friends that have differing views than me, but do I think less of them? No. You obviously have the idea in your head that you know everything. Let me tell you something, the only certainty is that there are no certainty’s. Hence, no opinion is the right opinion including yours because for there to be so would be contradictory to the very meaning of an opinion. To say that the war is all these things you say they are without any second thought and without any regard to anyone else’s opinion is simply immature and ignorant. As “Sir not apearing in this film” has said, you are in my opinion, a douchebag. I don’t even know you yet I have an opinion of you. Have you been to Iraq lately? Have you seen first hand? Have you memorized every single document, every statistic, every fact partaining to the war and what lead up to it and then have you ensured which facts are false and which are true? No, then you do not know for a fact anything and are instead acting like a fool for saying that you do.
Well, I don’t think I’ve ever heard so much drivel in all my life.
And rather than actually discuss an issue, you prove my point for me. Thank you douchebag, you’ve been a great help to the Republican party.
Sir Not Appearing In This Film
I believe you’re the one who’s not discussing the issue. Do you have a comeback to my most recent postings? No, you just want to tell me that I don’t want to debate. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
Does this picture below make you feel uncomfortable too? Should I stop posting this graphic and sick picture?
Despite my saying I would no longer post in regards to this user, I will say this, you’re sort of rightous “I’m right you’re wrong, everything is black and white” mentality is annoying. No wonder you cannot be civil enough to stop. Like I said, you have no respect for anothers opinions. I have many friends that have differing views than me, but do I think less of them? No. You obviously have the idea in your head that you know everything. Let me tell you something, the only certainty is that there are no certainty’s. Hence, no opinion is the right opinion including yours because for there to be so would be contradictory to the very meaning of an opinion. To say that the war is all these things you say they are without any second thought and without any regard to anyone else’s opinion is simply immature and ignorant. As “Sir not apearing in this film” has said, you are in my opinion, a douchebag. I don’t even know you yet I have an opinion of you. Have you been to Iraq lately? Have you seen first hand? Have you memorized every single document, every statistic, every fact partaining to the war and what lead up to it and then have you ensured which facts are false and which are true? No, then you do not know for a fact anything and are instead acting like a fool for saying that you do.
No, I’m afraid not. There’s a right and there’s a wrong. A war that kills thousands of innocent people is wrong. This is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact.
“you do not know for a fact anything and are instead acting like a fool for saying that you do”
When did I say I knew everything?
It’s common sense that wars bring about more wars. War = Peace to you?
Of course not, but ending a war does bring peace, in this case the war against fanatics who would seek to level America just for being America. I see tons of bleeding heart liberals saying in regards to religion that nothing is right and wrong, that there is no black and white, yet they say they know the difference between good and bad. War is a necessary evil. With war comes developement, research, etc. War is bad yes but that doesn’t mean everyone involved and who supports it is inherintly evil. You just suppose I would support war in its fullest just because I am a member of this forum. Nothing is black and white and do not believe I have stated my opinions on such matters. You still attempt to undermine yet you are still only apearing as nothing more than a fool. Hypocrites are generally the first to claim hypocrite on another.
Of course not, but ending a war does bring peace, in this case the war against fanatics who would seek to level America just for being America. I see tons of bleeding heart liberals saying in regards to religion that nothing is right and wrong, that there is no black and white, yet they say they know the difference between good and bad. War is a necessary evil. With war comes developement, research, etc. War is bad yes but that doesn’t mean everyone involved and who supports it is inherintly evil. You just suppose I would support war in its fullest just because I am a member of this forum. Nothing is black and white and do not believe I have stated my opinions on such matters. You still attempt to undermine yet you are still only apearing as nothing more than a fool. Hypocrites are generally the first to claim hypocrite on another.
“Ending a war brings peace.” I don’t know what to say to this. Are you taking the piss?
“War is a necessary evil.” The Iraq war was necessary how? Did Iraq have the capabilities to harm America or American citizens? No. The Bush Administration even said that.
Do you think natural resources had anything to do with the Iraq war?
Do you think these fanatics in the suits in the White House (the Christian Fundamentalists) have committed even worse acts of aggression on Middle Eastern countries as of late than the East ever has on the West?
