You ask about how Iraq was necessary? Tell me, was it necessary to fight Hitler in world war two? This is not the same war but their are similarities. U.N. resolutions said Iraq could not build an army, it did. Before world war 2 germany was ordered not to rearm, they did. In Iraq weapons inspectors were forced out of Iraq for 4 years, a decent amount of time to smuggle weapons out of Iraq. In nazi germany similar measures were taken, such as hiding weapons and training troops with wooden weapons until poland was attacked. In Iraq Saadam gassed 50,000 kurds in a single village and arrested, tortured, and killed many more in an attempted genocide. In germany millions of jews were exterminated and many were tortured and killed in an attempted genocide. The U.N. did not enforce its own sanctions against Iraq. The treaty of versilles was likewise dismissed in regards to nazi germany. Both of these ordered disarmerment of the respective countries. We fought a war with Iraq, who invaded Kuat. We fought a war with germany, world war one, before world war two. That is reason enough to be suspicious. Not to mention Iraq’s hatred toward the U.S. despite us helping them in their own conflicts. Weapons inspectors, before being thrown out, found machines used to make the chemical weapons, this was largly ignored and they only destroyed a few. It seems to me Iraq was a threat to the United States. Not to mention Iraq has payed off and funded various terrorist groups around the world to attack America. Not to mention they attempted to buy nuclear arms from former soviet union states.

We went to war with Hitler in order to end the war in Europe, how does that not a war for peace?

Natural resources have nothing to do with the Iraq war, other wise we would be using Iraqi oil instead of them. In fact, we would probably not bother losing more than the sub standard iraqi oil is worth.

The difference between the “fanatic fundamentalist christians” and the fanatics in the middle east is that the “fanatics” in the white house do not bomb kill thousands of civilians in an act of terrorism, we actually declare war and present ultimatums (in the case of Iraq, Saadam was ordered to allow weapons inspectors into the country once more and to disarm his illegal army within 48 hours, he did not comply) we do not strap bombs to ourselves and blow up civilian homes and buisness’s in the name of god, nor does America resort to using kids to do the same because its “rightous”. We do not kill anyone who doesn’t believe god. We do not call our women shameful and force them to be speachless. The list is endless.

The middle east is performing worse acts on its own people as well.

"You ask about how Iraq was necessary? Tell me, was it necessary to fight Hitler in world war two?”
Yes.  How long was Hitler in power?  Was he supported by American corporations like IBM?  Yes.  How long has Hussein been in power?  Was he supported by the American government?  Yes.  You just have to get over “We’re right, they’re wrong.” Hitler should not be compared to Saddam Hussein.  The American Government have been oh too happy to keep Saddam Hussein in power for as long as he was.

“This is not the same war but their are similarities. U.N. resolutions said Iraq could not build an army, it did.”
With the help of the United States.  Didn’t the US also create and fund Al Qaeda to fight off the Soviets in the 80’s?  A decade in which the “great beacon of freedom” that is the US, trampled all over Afghanistan and practically destroyed the country.  Funny how the Taliban stopped growing Opium in Afghanistan and the second the US move in there it’s being grown all over again?

Not to mention the fact that the Iraq war had NO UNITED NATIONS MANDATE.  It is an illegal war that the world didn’t want.  Bush went ahead and did it anyway.  9/11 gave them the perfect reason to go ahead with they had been planning to do for so long.

“In Iraq weapons inspectors were forced out of Iraq for 4 years, a decent amount of time to smuggle weapons out of Iraq.”
Actually, it’s common belief there were absolutely no weapons in Iraq.  In fact, there were weapons in Iraq—the ones WE supplied to Iraq.  These weapons were left open to free hands and the bunkers that held the weapons were looted and the weapons stolen.

“Not to mention Iraq’s hatred toward the U.S. despite us helping them in their own conflicts.”
You said it.  By the way, do you think every single innocent Iraqi citizen who died as a result of our pre-emptive strike actually hated America?

“It seems to me Iraq was a threat to the United States.”
Well, this is something in YOUR head.  The US government even said Iraq was no threat to the US and that “we are able to keep arms from him”.  So if they said it, it must be true.

“We went to war with Hitler in order to end the war in Europe, how does that not a war for peace?”
When did I say it wasn’t a war for peace?  And was it only the U.S. versus Germany?  Why are you comparing this to Iraq?

“Natural resources have nothing to do with the Iraq war, other wise we would be using Iraqi oil instead of them.”
You are using Iraqi oil you naiive weirdo.

“The difference between the “fanatic fundamentalist christians” and the fanatics in the middle east is that the “fanatics” in the white house do not bomb kill thousands of civilians in an act of terrorism,”
No sorry.  The United States has bombed and killed thousands of civilains in acts of terrorism.  Ever look at a history book?

“we actually declare war and present ultimatums”
Oh, aren’t we the big men then!  Do what we say or we’ll come and blow you to smithereens, just because we say so.

“(in the case of Iraq, Saadam was ordered to allow weapons inspectors into the country once more and to disarm his illegal army within 48 hours, he did not comply)”
I believe it was the Chief UN weapons inspector who said “It’s funny how that the US in convinced Iraq has WMD’s yet doesn’t know where they are.”
Funny that.

“we do not strap bombs to ourselves and blow up civilian homes and buisness’s in the name of god,”
Well, not all Iraqi’s do.  And some Americans have.  We just bomb them from the sky and try to cowardly scarper away in a helicopter or B-52.  At least those Iraqi’s have some balls and blow themselves up!  But really though, Americans murder Iraqi’s and Iraqi’s murder Americans.  It’s a war of ideology.

“nor does America resort to using kids to do the same because its “rightous”. We do not kill anyone who doesn’t believe god. We do not call our women shameful and force them to be speachless. The list is endless.”
And you think WE means all Americans and THEY means ALL Iraqi’s?

What country has dropped the atomic bomb?  A threat to the world.

What country has the biggest stockpile of WMD’s in the wordl?  A threat to the world.  Why should the US have them and not another country?

mechareaper - 05 March 2006 09:10 PM

The middle east is performing worse acts on its own people as well.

And an illegal, immoral and pre-emptive strike is going to help the situation how?  I suggest the following book that might lift you out of your “us” versus “them” way of thinking.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039471475X/sr=8-1/qid=1141609184/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8234362-2091334?_encoding=UTF8

Also, I’d like to mention that a lot of US soliders are born into belief sytems of common ‘values’ and ideals etc.  Beliefs are not truths.  They are born into a system of strict indoctrination and regimentation and pretty much guaranteed to be f**ked before they’re even born.  They might have had a military family background where the grandfather comes over for dinner on a Sunday and discusses war stories over the table and the grandson stares at him all goodle-eyed, wanting to be the “brave and honourable” man his grandfather is.  These soldiers are basically forced into it because they’re brought up thinking something their parents were lead to believe when they were young - in school, at home and from strict indoctrination by the governement.

War is Peace.

Slavery is Freedom.

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 09:53 PM

Also, I’d like to mention that a lot of US soliders are born into belief sytems of common ‘values’ and ideals etc.  Beliefs are not truths.

Speaking of truths, you’ve been mighty slim with them.  You keep shouting that you have all the truth behind you, and then proceed to prove it by spouting mere opinions.  For example, immediately following this diatribe:

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 05:49 PM

Listen it’s the truth that most people here don’t want to hear.  It’s nothing to do with me being disrespecful or opinions vs. facts.  I will respect certain views if they choose to sit up straight and say:  2+2=4.  I find it sad that there’s fellow human beings going around thinking that war brings peace.  It’s just not true.  And if your opinion rivals the truth, yes, you can have that opinion, but don’t tell me I’m wrong.

where you kind of try to sound like you respect the truth (despite telling us to not “tell me I’m wrong"), you proceed with:

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 05:49 PM

The illegal, immoral and pre-emptive strike on the people of Iraq for oil had nothing to do with 9/11.  The country is more dangerous as a result.  How many people have died as a result of this decision versus the 3,000 who died on 9/11?  How many soldiers? For every soldier who dies, that affects perhaps 100 people in some way.  This war is one of the biggest mistakes ever and is simply disgusting.  To actually support this war is something that cannot be understood, because the reasons people give for the support of the war are simply not valid.

Do YOU think that this war in Iraq will make sure that there will never be a terrorist attack again?  Do you think that it will limit terrorist attacks?  Do you think it will make the world are more dangerous place?

I underlined the opinions, italicized the questions, and bolded the facts presented in your post.  Notice the lack of bolding?  Most of your posts would be similarly marked.  You claim to value facts because you assume your opinions are facts.  You are foolishly mistaken.

To continue from the original post:

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 09:53 PM

They are born into a system of strict indoctrination and regimentation and pretty much guaranteed to be f**ked before they’re even born.  They might have had a military family background where the grandfather comes over for dinner on a Sunday and discusses war stories over the table and the grandson stares at him all goodle-eyed, wanting to be the “brave and honourable” man his grandfather is.  These soldiers are basically forced into it because they’re brought up thinking something their parents were lead to believe when they were young - in school, at home and from strict indoctrination by the governement.

So you don’t like or respect soldiers?

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 09:28 PM

“we do not strap bombs to ourselves and blow up civilian homes and buisness’s in the name of god,”

Well, not all Iraqi’s do.  And some Americans have.  We just bomb them from the sky and try to cowardly scarper away in a helicopter or B-52.  At least those Iraqi’s have some balls and blow themselves up!

You don’t like or respect our pilots either?  I’m starting to see a trend here.  You don’t support our military.

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 09:28 PM

What country has dropped the atomic bomb?  A threat to the world.

Yes, it’s becoming clearer.  You would have preferred a conventional invasion of mainland Japan.  Now I know you don’t support our military, because hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers would have likely died in such an attack.  Oh...and millions of Japanese civilians.  So is it death you abhor, or any U.S. victory?  Because it’s not looking like you abhor death anymore.

Before you get all pissy about me claiming you don’t support the troops, look again at what I’ve quoted you saying.  You said our soldiers are prenatally indoctrinated and our pilots are cowards.  You have a long way to go to convince anybody here you support our troops.

CM: we don’t agree on much, but I want to thank you for trying to convey to him how we try to operate around here.  That he blew you off despite your liberalism is indicative that he didn’t come here to discuss anything.  He has made no friends here, even among the liberals I suspect.

Don’t bullshit me and try to give a false sense that there’s people here who like Michael Moore.  There’s no democracy here.

And by the way, you can’t say things like “You claim to value facts because you assume your opinions are facts.  You are foolishly mistaken.” without actually saying what facts I’ve put forth are only opinions.

This site isn’t a democracy.  It’s privately owned.  The people who like Michael Moore go to his website or DailyKos, not here.

Michael Douglas - 06 March 2006 12:46 AM

Don’t bullshit me and try to give a false sense that there’s people here who like Michael Moore.  There’s no democracy here.

LD pegged it.  I don’t know what you expected.  The only one bullshitting around here today has been you.

And by the way, you can’t say things like “You claim to value facts because you assume your opinions are facts.  You are foolishly mistaken.” without actually saying what facts I’ve put forth are only opinions.

I pointed out in one of your posts exactly which of your “facts” are actually opinions.  I’m not going to chase down all of your posts because they’re growing faster than an ebola infection.  It’ll be a lot easier if you deliimit what you think are facts with some kind of tag; I would suggest [fact]...[/fact].  In any case it’s your job to present facts, not mine to tell you the difference between facts and opinions every time.

You skipped my question.  You’re very good at that.  Show me something I’ve said that is an opinion and not fact—the one you said that you pointed out.

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 08:40 PM

No, I’m afraid not.  There’s a right and there’s a wrong.  A war that kills thousands of innocent people is wrong.  This is not a matter of opinion.  It is a matter of fact.

But in this manner of thinking any war is wrong. Therefore both World Wars were wrong. It is almost impossible to go to war without any innocent civilians being killed.

Night - 06 March 2006 05:33 AM

Michael Douglas - 05 March 2006 08:40 PM

No, I’m afraid not.  There’s a right and there’s a wrong.  A war that kills thousands of innocent people is wrong.  This is not a matter of opinion.  It is a matter of fact.

But in this manner of thinking any war is wrong. Therefore both World Wars were wrong. It is almost impossible to go to war without any innocent civilians being killed.

An avoidable war that kills thousands of innocents, never mind uses it’s own soldiers as cannon-fodder, is wrong (ie Iraq).  You have to nitpick at everything, even though you knew what I was saying.  World War I & II are not even comparable in any way shape or form to the Iraq war.

Is it true that Prescott Bush helped to fund Hitler?  Not too hard to imagine since you have Rummy the Angel shaking hands with The Devil in this picture.

Michael Douglas - 06 March 2006 03:16 AM

You skipped my question.  You’re very good at that.  Show me something I’ve said that is an opinion and not fact—the one you said that you pointed out.

I’m not repeating any of my posts for your benefit.  You spend so much time here, you can find it yourself.  I’ll give you a hint: it’s on this very page.

Clearly, you’re not reading any of us.  You’re just spewing like a broken sprinkler.  Don’t demand so much attention from us if you’re not paying any yourself.

he was the only person on earth who ever did that. yep. the euros, UN delegates, asians all did like the referees in that film “bloodsport”. you know where scheming, cheating kumite fighter chong li ("rumsfeld") kills somebody to advance to the next round, they all stand up and turn around, united in a gesture of disapproval. boy, that sure showed chong li who’s boss.  he never cheated again. that is until the final round where he throws some chalk in opponent noble euro jean claude van damme’s eyes. but as a belgian, a euro, van damme still sees even though he can’t see.

Remember too, who attempted to keep noble Van Damme from his goal? Why, ‘twas evil, imperialist, American thugs! Who probably wanted to kill every minority in the building during the final fight! And why? To keep the noble euro from his dream of “to bay ze bes’ I cane bay!”

Such beauty as to bring tears to ones eyes.