and yes, the second link, dated july 23, tells of whats going on the mosques:
The fatwa went further: “The attacks in London have no Islamic justification, are totally condemned and we equally condemn those who have been behind the masterminding of these acts” — which claimed at least 56 lives and, like 9/11, has entered the British lexicon as 7/7.
A few blocks away, however, another kind of meeting was taking place. Four young men sat in an Islamic bookstore to finish hand-drawn fliers to protest the “crimes against Muslims” — a list including the occupation of Iraq, Palestinian struggles and the perception of a permanent underclass status for Britain’s Muslims. They titled the missives: “The two sides of 7/7.”
“No one can condone the attacks in London,” said one of the men, who gave his name only as Munir. “But you also can’t ignore the feelings of Muslims and the pain they sense. We have to look a lot deeper than just condemning violence.”
Some question if the moderate Muslim leadership in Britain is willing to go in that direction. It moves them toward some awkward choices — making distinctions between terrorism and what’s considered legitimate Islamic struggles.
beings how islam is something of a boys’ club, 50% of the muslim population is automatically shut out from active protest/opinion - unless its okayed by said boys. and down the street, “a few blocks away”, a handful of men is unapologetic, demanding justice for muslims.
to me, its just doesn’t look like too many muslims will join in any anti-terror protests.
lets think radically - say we withdraw from iraq and afghanistan, give palestinians whatever they want, offer amnesty to all islamic extremists, and resolve whatever discrimination muslims perceive, i’m supposed to believe jihad - i.e. “the struggle” - would be over. i rather doubt that.
even if your name is robin hood or jesse james, at the end of the day, you’re just another punk who’s run afoul of the law quite voluntarily, be it to get soem virgin coos in the afterlife or a pat on the back by your own personal idols.
All it said was the superpowers needed to band together - it never once says that Muslims worldwide aren’t going to do anything about it, just that they’d like our help.
they’d like our help polishing up islam’s image, thats about it. why hasn’t musharraf offered to let those bundled superpowers, or even the UN, to go out and cleanse his country’s mountains of jihadis?
lets think radically - say we withdraw from iraq and afghanistan, give palestinians whatever they want, offer amnesty to all islamic extremists, and resolve whatever discrimination muslims perceive, i’m supposed to believe jihad - i.e. “the struggle” - would be over. i rather doubt that.
You don’t think it would at least make the recruitment drive a little more problematic ?
Doubtful.. Here’s some questions from a bin Laden interview in 98, before 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and Bush. He still had plenty of grievences:
You come from a background of wealth and comfort to end up fighting on the front lines. Many Americans find that unusual.
This is difficult to understand, especially for him who does not understand the religion of Islam. In our religion, we believe that Allah has created us for the purpose of worshipping him. He is the one who has created us and who has favored us with this religion. Allah has ordered us to make holy wars and to fight to see to it that His word is the highest and the uppermost and that of the unbelievers the lowermost. We believe that this is the call we have to answer regardless of our financial capabilities.
We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets.This too answers the claims of the West and of the secular people in the Arab world. They claim that this blessed awakening and the people reverting to Islam are due to economic factors. This is not so. It is rather a grace from Allah, a desire to embrace the religion of Allah. And this is not surprising. When the holy war called, thousands of young men from the Arab Peninsula and other countries answered the call and they came from wealthy backgrounds. Hundreds of them were killed in Afghanistan and in Bosnia and in Chechnya
Mr. bin Laden, you have issued a fatwah calling on Muslims to kill Americans where they can, when they can. Is that directed at all Americans, just the American military, just the Americans in Saudi Arabia?
Allah has ordered us to glorify the truth and to defend Muslim land, especially the Arab peninsula ... against the unbelievers. After World War II, the Americans grew more unfair and more oppressive towards people in general and Muslims in particular. ... The Americans started it and retaliation and punishment should be carried out following the principle of reciprocity, especially when women and children are involved. Through history, American has not been known to differentiate between the military and the civilians or between men and women or adults and children. Those who threw atomic bombs and used the weapons of mass destruction against Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the Americans. Can the bombs differentiate between military and women and infants and children? America has no religion that can deter her from exterminating whole peoples. Your position against Muslims in Palestine is despicable and disgraceful. America has no shame. ... We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets, and this is what the fatwah says ... . The fatwah is general (comprehensive) and it includes all those who participate in, or help the Jewish occupiers in killing Muslims.
No one expected the mujahedeen to beat the Russians in Afghanistan. It came as a surprise to everyone. What do you see as the future of American involvement in the Middle East, in taking on groups like this?
... Allah has granted the Muslim people and the Afghani mujahedeen, and those with them, the opportunity to fight the Russians and the Soviet Union. ... They were defeated by Allah and were wiped out. There is a lesson here. The Soviet Union entered Afghanistan late in December of ‘79. The flag of the Soviet Union was folded once and for all on the 25th of December just 10 years later. It was thrown in the waste basket. Gone was the Soviet union forever. We are certain that we shall - with the grace of Allah - prevail over the Americans and over the Jews, as the Messenger of Allah promised us in an authentic prophetic tradition when He said the Hour of Resurrection shall not come before Muslims fight Jews and before Jews hide behind trees and behind rocks.
We are certain - with the grace of Allah - that we shall prevail over the Jews and over those fighting with them. Today however, our battle against the Americans is far greater than our battle was against the Russians. Americans have committed unprecedented stupidity. They have attacked Islam and its most significant sacrosanct symbols ... . We anticipate a black future for America. Instead of remaining United States, it shall end up separated states and shall have to carry the bodies of its sons back to America.
The American people, by and large, do not know the name bin Laden, but they soon likely will. Do you have a message for the American people?
I say to them that they have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, and this is most evident in Clinton’s administration ... . We believe that this administration represents Israel inside America. Take the sensitive ministries such as the Ministry of Exterior and the Ministry of Defense and the CIA, you will find that the Jews have the upper hand in them. They make use of America to further their plans for the world, especially the Islamic world. American presence in the Gulf provides support to the Jews and protects their rear. And while millions of Americans are homeless and destitute and live in abject poverty, their government is busy occupying our land and building new settlements and helping Israel build new settlements in the point of departure for our Prophet’s midnight journey to the seven heavens. America throws her own sons in the land of the two Holy Mosques for the sake of protecting Jewish interests. ...
The American government is leading the country towards hell. ... We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests not the interests of the Jews. If the present injustice continues with the wave of national consciousness, it will inevitably move the battle to American soil, just as Ramzi Yousef and others have done. This is my message to the American people. I urge them to find a serious administration that acts in their interest and does not attack people and violate their honor and pilfer their wealth. ...
So we’d have to pull out of Afghanistan, Iraq, give the Palestinians everything, fuck over the Jews, un-nuke Japan, convert to Islam, and maybe, just maybe they’ll forgive us.
how many anti-iraq war rallies occur in superpower countries in comparison to anti-jihad rallies anywhere on earth? our Good People are getting inventive just to keep the Movement exciting.
Don’t they understand that if they attack us violently, it will only enrage us and we’ll demand our government take even more heavy-handed action against them, and we’ll enlist more recruits? Why can’t they try to understand our position and attempt to sort this out using non-violent means.. Oh wait, I forgot that logic only works in one direction…
My bottom line is, I don’t think the Islamic community as a whole has done enough to denounce and distance themselves from the extremeists. Why the fuck are you arguing about this ? How can it hurt to hear more from the Islamic community ?
I’m not picking a fight here, I just don’t think the Islamic community as a whole has to do much more than they have to distance themselves from extremeists. These people are no different than you. They are residents of their communities and normal people living their lives. They are not involved in terrorism any more than you. What are you doing more than the Islamic community to denounce terrorism? The leaders denounce the actions and they spread the true meaning of Islam, everyone else are normal memebers of society and can choose to denounce it anyway they want, weather that be publicly or privately.
I don’t need to see protests to know that almost every Muslim denounces terrorism.
and yes, the second link, dated july 23, tells of whats going on the mosques:
Indeed it does. Unfortunately the bit you’re trying to draw people’s attention in your bolded part of your most recent quote was the part of the article which wasn’t about what was going on inside the Mosque. Instead you’ve decided to try and pass off 4 men in an Islamic bookstore drawing crappy flyers with felt-tips as taking place inside the mosque, as opposed to the reality of 2000 people in the mosque declaring a fatwa against terrorists.
How very Moore-ish.
beings how islam is something of a boys’ club, 50% of the muslim population is automatically shut out from active protest/opinion - unless its okayed by said boys. and down the street, “a few blocks away”, a handful of men is unapologetic, demanding justice for muslims.
Yes, a whole 4 men, in a nation of 1.5 million Muslims. So that’s grounds to indict a whole community, is it?
I’m not in disagreement with you on the nature of political opinion and the ability to express it in the Muslim community, indeed I would heartily agree that Islam is by and large authoritarian. I dislike Islam but I do not dislike Muslims per se, provided that they do not endorse acts of terror, and by and large most Muslims in Britain have condemned rather than endorse these attacks.
to me, its just doesn’t look like too many muslims will join in any anti-terror protests.
This ‘I don’t see Muslims marching’ attitude on this board intrigues me. Leaving aside the apparent ignorance of some poster here who have yet to realise that there have in fact been Muslim anti-terror marches, we’re coming back to a double-standard.
Firstly, did anyone ever demand that all Catholics should either condemn IRA atrocities or be considered terrorist supporters themselves? No, we didn’t. Neither did we demand the same of people who were Irish. So why should treat Muslims any differently?
Secondly, I seem to recall that when there were marches against the war on Iraq, the majority of posters here (and indeed, most people on the right) pooh-poohed such efforts, decried the protestors as ‘idiots’ or ‘damn hippies’ and then launched into tirades about people who went on marches should shut the hell up because marches were stupid. So firstly you decide to deride marches, and now you’ve suddenly changed your mind and decided they’re essential?
Given that over a million marched on London against the Iraq war and it didn’t make a damn bit of difference, Muslims might be presuming that a similar effort by themselves would largely be pointless, given that marches have totally failed to change the opinions of those most against them in the past.
Secondly, I seem to recall that when there were marches against the war on Iraq, the majority of posters here (and indeed, most people on the right) pooh-poohed such efforts, decried the protestors as ‘idiots’ or ‘damn hippies’ and then launched into tirades about people who went on marches should shut the hell up because marches were stupid. So firstly you decide to deride marches, and now you’ve suddenly changed your mind and decided they’re essential?
Yeah that was one bizarre thread, that whole ‘protestors are all losers and waste everyones time, and look at the litter they leave’ thing. Just bizarre.
Doubtful.. Here’s some questions from a bin Laden interview in 98, before 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and Bush. He still had plenty of grievences:
You come from a background of wealth and comfort to end up fighting on the front lines. Many Americans find that unusual.
This is difficult to understand, especially for him who does not understand the religion of Islam. In our religion, we believe that Allah has created us for the purpose of worshipping him. He is the one who has created us and who has favored us with this religion. Allah has ordered us to make holy wars and to fight to see to it that His word is the highest and the uppermost and that of the unbelievers the lowermost. We believe that this is the call we have to answer regardless of our financial capabilities.
We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets.This too answers the claims of the West and of the secular people in the Arab world. They claim that this blessed awakening and the people reverting to Islam are due to economic factors. This is not so. It is rather a grace from Allah, a desire to embrace the religion of Allah. And this is not surprising. When the holy war called, thousands of young men from the Arab Peninsula and other countries answered the call and they came from wealthy backgrounds. Hundreds of them were killed in Afghanistan and in Bosnia and in Chechnya
Mr. bin Laden, you have issued a fatwah calling on Muslims to kill Americans where they can, when they can. Is that directed at all Americans, just the American military, just the Americans in Saudi Arabia?
Allah has ordered us to glorify the truth and to defend Muslim land, especially the Arab peninsula ... against the unbelievers. After World War II, the Americans grew more unfair and more oppressive towards people in general and Muslims in particular. ... The Americans started it and retaliation and punishment should be carried out following the principle of reciprocity, especially when women and children are involved. Through history, American has not been known to differentiate between the military and the civilians or between men and women or adults and children. Those who threw atomic bombs and used the weapons of mass destruction against Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the Americans. Can the bombs differentiate between military and women and infants and children? America has no religion that can deter her from exterminating whole peoples. Your position against Muslims in Palestine is despicable and disgraceful. America has no shame. ... We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets, and this is what the fatwah says ... . The fatwah is general (comprehensive) and it includes all those who participate in, or help the Jewish occupiers in killing Muslims.
No one expected the mujahedeen to beat the Russians in Afghanistan. It came as a surprise to everyone. What do you see as the future of American involvement in the Middle East, in taking on groups like this?
… Allah has granted the Muslim people and the Afghani mujahedeen, and those with them, the opportunity to fight the Russians and the Soviet Union. ... They were defeated by Allah and were wiped out. There is a lesson here. The Soviet Union entered Afghanistan late in December of ‘79. The flag of the Soviet Union was folded once and for all on the 25th of December just 10 years later. It was thrown in the waste basket. Gone was the Soviet union forever. We are certain that we shall - with the grace of Allah - prevail over the Americans and over the Jews, as the Messenger of Allah promised us in an authentic prophetic tradition when He said the Hour of Resurrection shall not come before Muslims fight Jews and before Jews hide behind trees and behind rocks.
We are certain - with the grace of Allah - that we shall prevail over the Jews and over those fighting with them. Today however, our battle against the Americans is far greater than our battle was against the Russians. Americans have committed unprecedented stupidity. They have attacked Islam and its most significant sacrosanct symbols ... . We anticipate a black future for America. Instead of remaining United States, it shall end up separated states and shall have to carry the bodies of its sons back to America.
The American people, by and large, do not know the name bin Laden, but they soon likely will. Do you have a message for the American people?
I say to them that they have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, and this is most evident in Clinton’s administration ... . We believe that this administration represents Israel inside America. Take the sensitive ministries such as the Ministry of Exterior and the Ministry of Defense and the CIA, you will find that the Jews have the upper hand in them. They make use of America to further their plans for the world, especially the Islamic world. American presence in the Gulf provides support to the Jews and protects their rear. And while millions of Americans are homeless and destitute and live in abject poverty, their government is busy occupying our land and building new settlements and helping Israel build new settlements in the point of departure for our Prophet’s midnight journey to the seven heavens. America throws her own sons in the land of the two Holy Mosques for the sake of protecting Jewish interests. ...
The American government is leading the country towards hell. ... We say to the Americans as people and to American mothers, if they cherish their lives and if they cherish their sons, they must elect an American patriotic government that caters to their interests not the interests of the Jews. If the present injustice continues with the wave of national consciousness, it will inevitably move the battle to American soil, just as Ramzi Yousef and others have done. This is my message to the American people. I urge them to find a serious administration that acts in their interest and does not attack people and violate their honor and pilfer their wealth. ...
So we’d have to pull out of Afghanistan, Iraq, give the Palestinians everything, fuck over the Jews, un-nuke Japan, convert to Islam, and maybe, just maybe they’ll forgive us.
Yeah let’s continue to ignore any actual understandable grievance then, on the basis that Osama has listed it. That makes as much sense as trying to carry out what you’ve listed there. Cause, you know, it’s been working really well following Business As Usual.
Even if you are right, and they get the same number of recruitments (which I highly doubt), it would strengthen opposition to the radicals by the moderate Muslims the world over. Because don’t we all agree that that is vitally important ?
I’m just pointing out that there were plenty more grievences before the current ones, and recruitment was high enough to pull off 9/11. What would really be gained by pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan now? Would they form their own peaceful, civilized society, or would they be besieged by warlordism, factionalism and ultimately Taleban and Iranian type states creating greater humanitarian consequences which would no doubt be labeled our fault by the very people who demanded we pull out in the first place? And that wouldn’t that crisis also boost recruitment?
And if they attack us, and we subsequently give into their demand, what message does that send? Again, we can find out by reading Bin Laden’s own words:
Describe the situation when your men took down the American forces in Somalia.
After our victory in Afghanistan and the defeat of the oppressors who had killed millions of Muslims, the legend about the invincibility of the superpowers vanished. Our boys no longer viewed America as a superpower. So, when they left Afghanistan, they went to Somalia and prepared themselves carefully for a long war. They had thought that the Americans were like the Russians, so they trained and prepared. They were stunned when they discovered how low was the morale of the American soldier. America had entered with 30,000 soldiers in addition to thousands of soldiers from different countries in the world. ... As I said, our boys were shocked by the low morale of the American soldier and they realized that the American soldier was just a paper tiger. He was unable to endure the strikes that were dealt to his army, so he fled, and America had to stop all its bragging and all that noise it was making in the press after the Gulf War in which it destroyed the infrastructure and the milk and dairy industry that was vital for the infants and the children and the civilians and blew up dams which were necessary for the crops people grew to feed their families. Proud of this destruction, America assumed the titles of world leader and master of the new world order. After a few blows, it forgot all about those titles and rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace, dragging the bodies of its soldiers. America stopped calling itself world leader and master of the new world order, and its politicians realized that those titles were too big for them and that they were unworthy of them. I was in Sudan when this happened. I was very happy to learn of that great defeat that America suffered, so was every Muslim. ...
Indeed it does. Unfortunately the bit you’re trying to draw people’s attention in your bolded part of your most recent quote was the part of the article which wasn’t about what was going on inside the Mosque. Instead you’ve decided to try and pass off 4 men in an Islamic bookstore drawing crappy flyers with felt-tips as taking place inside the mosque, as opposed to the reality of 2000 people in the mosque declaring a fatwa against terrorists.
How very Moore-ish.
guilty as charged.
but to put those 4 disgruntled muslims off as harmless oafs is the Big Mistake; potentially, they’re to that 2000-strong muslim community what al qaeda is to islam - poison. is anyone going to tell them they should leave it alone? nope.
Firstly, did anyone ever demand that all Catholics should either condemn IRA atrocities or be considered terrorist supporters themselves? No, we didn’t. Neither did we demand the same of people who were Irish. So why should treat Muslims any differently?
the ira doesn’t target all and any non-catholics, nor does it target countries that discriminate against catholics. if we look into who has ties with the ira, it becomes clear that their loving catholicism is a sham. luckily for them, they want freedom for ireland, too.
The IRA has received aid from a variety of groups and countries and considerable training and arms from Libya and, at one time, the PLO. Also, the IRA is suspected of receiving funds and arms from sympathizers in the United States. Similarities in operations suggest links to the ETA. In August 2002, three suspected IRA members were arrested in Colombia on charges of assisting the FARC to improve its explosives capabilities
so much for peace and love. that they have “sympathizers in the United States” will rile the Good folks up, because “we expect better from you”. and the ira marches right on…
it was posted elsewhere that the english were quietly defying terror by going about their business as usual, whereas americans tend to have a yen for (re-)action in response to similar dangers (mass demos and effigy-burning excluded). what “we”, the ones once living terror-free, will never fully understand is why terror is so readily accepted elsewhere. kraut terrorists found guilty of kidnapping, robbery and attempted murder serve 5 years jail time, get new ID’s, job skills and a book deal. thats just wrong. “she came from a broken home. he had too much money. they felt alienated” - any apology will do. punishment equals revenge and thats it.
Secondly, I seem to recall that when there were marches against the war on Iraq, the majority of posters here (and indeed, most people on the right) pooh-poohed such efforts, decried the protestors as ‘idiots’ or ‘damn hippies’ and then launched into tirades about people who went on marches should shut the hell up because marches were stupid. So firstly you decide to deride marches, and now you’ve suddenly changed your mind and decided they’re essential?
terrorism kills people. thats as good a reason to demo as bush killing people.
Held on Sunday, January 16, at Berkeley’s Martin Luther King Jr. Park, the Rally Against Global Terrorism almost never took place. The city of Berkeley constantly stalled on a permit until the organizers were interviewed on KNEW conservative talk radio host Jeff Katz’s talk show. What followed was enough public outrage that a flurry of emails to City Hall got the permit granted the very next day. Katz became one of the keynote speakers that day giving a rousing call to define terrorism for what it really is: a crime against humanity and not something to be regarded as justified in any way.
As centerpiece for the rally and to bring the reality of terrorism closer to home, the wreckage of Jerusalem Bus #19, destroyed last year in a suicide bombing that killed 11 and wounded 45 passengers, was on display to show the horrors of terrorism up close. The back of the bus was completely blown away along with parts of the front roof. The interior of the bus was all burned and made any sensitive viewer understand the agony of those inside the bus that fateful day the attack occurred.
“Most of those passengers were simply people going to or from work,” Katz told the sympathetic crowd. A large portable mural displayed photos of many of those killed in over 50 suicide bombing attacks on buses in Israel.
700 people attended the rally to protest terrorism worldwide and listen to a diverse group of speakers representing different religious, ethnic, and political points of view. This was an event for Muslims, Jews, Arabs, Hindus, Christians and others who all joined that day to oppose terrorism worldwide. Even some of Berkeley’s homeless joined in. A large portable mural displayed photos of many of those killed in terrorist attacks.
Unfortunately, the day was marred by the bellicose presence of protesters against the bus’s presence in Berkeley because it shows the world the damage that can be done by a suicide bomber. Word got out quickly and even before the rally officially began at noon, a crowd of 300 pro-Palestinian and radical communist and anarchist groups such as International Answer and the International Socialist Organization showed up determined to disrupt the event. They gathered across the street to express their outrage that Jews, Christians, and other supporters of Israel and America had dared to gather and speak out against terrorism.
Groups such as the Justice in Palestine Coalition, Middle East Children’s Alliance (MECA), East Bay Peace Action, United for Peace and Justice, and the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) were present. Paul La Rudee, the leader of Norcal ISM who once wrote about his experiences sleeping in the bed of a suicide bomber , was also present as a leader. As evidence of just where the sympathies of Berkeley’s political establishment lay, Berkeley City Councilman Max Anderson was also part of the crowd.
Around 40 pro-Palestinian college students, the women wearing hijabs and the men sporting Arafat-style black and white checkered keffiyehs (in some cases covering their whole faces, terrorist-style), waved Palestinian flags and used bullhorns to chant “Down with Israel!” and “ Down with the U.S.A!.” They yelled “Free Palestine!” in an attempt to drown out the anti-terrorism speakers on the platform.
Members of San Francisco State University’s General Union of Palestinian Students and UC Berkeley’s Muslim Student Association also joined their ranks and became the most vocal and rowdy of the bunch. They unraveled a large banner reading “United States and Israel: Terrorists Against Humanity.”
One has to wonder at the logic of people who would protest a protest against world terrorism in the name of “humanity.” The demonstrators even brought small children who stood alongside them, shouting slogans and imitating their behavior....
Once on the other side of the street, the remaining police officers parted ways and allowed the unruly mob to disrupt the anti-terror rally. Screaming “Allahu Akbar!” and pushing their way through the crowd, the pro-Palestinian protesters appeared as menacing as a similar crowd in the Middle East. But still the police did nothing to stop them. Some members of the anti-terror rally shouted at the police officers, “Why aren’t you doing anything?” or “Why don’t you stop them?” The police officers ignored them as some of the pro-Palestinian demonstrators chanted their desire to be “martyrs.”
i see now that the demo was biased against the PLO, as the bus blown up by them somehow insinuated that all palestinians were terrorists, and they were to blame for all terror.
We’ve already had this debate. Firstly, Saudi Arabia, the country in which Mecca is located, has already issued a condemnation of terrorism.
Secondly, although Mecca may be the pivotal point of worship and the holiest city in Islam, there is no central authority based in Mecca that can speak for all Muslims. I think you’re labouring under this misapprehension that Mecca is the Muslim equivilent of the Vatican - it’s not. There is no Muslim super-iman currently sitting next to Mohammed’s tomb, there is no Ultra High Council and Supreme Poobah of Islam based in Mecca, and there is no King Mohammed MCMLXXXIV of All Muslims in the Name of Allah the Merciful sitting on big throne in Mecca.
As far as I’m aware, the Saudi government, which in global terms speaks for the citizens of Mecca, has condemned these acts of terror perpetrated in London, and has also condemned pretty much every single other act of terrorism carried out by al-Qaeda.
So what the hell more are you expecting from Mecca?
All I hear about is that these terrorists are just extremists. Well where the fuck are the moderate Muslims? Hmm?
How about all the ones who aren’t strapping bombs to their chests and boarding trains?
And don’t you think it’s just a little late for these fatwas to be declared? They should’ve declared fatwas on terrorism years ago.
Better late than never, as the United States found out on September 11th, 2001, after spending the last 50 years supporting various terrorist groups in an effort to rile the Soviets.
Of course these fatwas should have been declared years ago, just like years ago the US shouldn’t have armed up Afghans or had dialogues with Saddam Hussein. The important thing is that now Muslims are learning the importance of cleaning up their mess, just like the US already has.
but to put those 4 disgruntled muslims off as harmless oafs is the Big Mistake; potentially, they’re to that 2000-strong muslim community what al qaeda is to islam - poison. is anyone going to tell them they should leave it alone? nope.
Well, I’d have thought the guy telling those 2000 people in the mosque that terrorism was bad might be construed as being told to leave alone that poison.
Nevertheless, hopefully those four men will be investigated under the laws regarding the incitement of racial hatred and the new anti-terror powers.
the ira doesn’t target all and any non-catholics, nor does it target countries that discriminate against catholics.
The IRA has had a long history of indiscriminantly attacking civilian Protestant targets, as has its many splinter groups. The Omagh, London and Birmingham bombings of the last 15 years must have just slipped your mind, never mind the hundreds of murders in the 70s.
The IRA’s justification has also long been that Catholics are apparently discriminated against in Northern Ireland - a quick wander around Catholic estates in the region will result in you seeing dozens of murals glorifying guns and violence on the grounds that the IRA is comparable to the black civil rights movement of the US in the 1960s.
i see now that the demo was biased against the PLO, as the bus blown up by them somehow insinuated that all palestinians were terrorists, and they were to blame for all terror.
I’m just far more amused that for all your bluff and bluster that not enough Muslims are protesting against terrorism, you’re only able to present 700 non-Muslims marching against the concept yet able to present 2000 Muslims witnessing the issue of a fatwa against terrorism during a routine prayer session at a mosque.
Well, I’d have thought the guy telling those 2000 people in the mosque that terrorism was bad might be construed as being told to leave alone that poison.
i expect one of these 2000 men will tell a friend, who will tell a friend, who will tell a friend of bin ladens, who will tell bin laden that the world - i.e. up to 2000 men in an english mosque - disapprove of his jihad. that should bring him around.
nah, i think in this case a plain old “million muslim march” with al jazeera present would actually be more effective.
The IRA has had a long history of indiscriminantly attacking civilian Protestant targets, as has its many splinter groups. The Omagh, London and Birmingham bombings of the last 15 years must have just slipped your mind, never mind the hundreds of murders in the 70s.
my bad. i wasn’t aware that the ira that their goal was to kill all non-catholics.
The IRA’s justification has also long been that Catholics are apparently discriminated against in Northern Ireland - a quick wander around Catholic estates in the region will result in you seeing dozens of murals glorifying guns and violence on the grounds that the IRA is comparable to the black civil rights movement of the US in the 1960s.
so how do you feel about the IRA? what kind of people are they?
(AP)—American Muslim scholars who interpret religious law for their community issued an edict Thursday condemning terrorism against civilians in response to the wave of deadly attacks in Britain and other countries. In the statement, called a fatwa, the 18-member Fiqh Council of North America wrote that people who commit terrorism in the name of Islam were “criminals, not `martyrs.“‘
“There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism,” the scholars wrote. “Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram—or forbidden.”
Many Muslim leaders overseas have issued similar condemnations in recent weeks, but some have left an opening for violence to be used. British Muslim leaders who denounced the July 7 attacks in London said suicide bombings could still be justified against an occupying power.
The U.S. fatwa did not specifically address suicide bombings in a war, but the scholars barred Muslims from helping anyone “involved in any act of terrorism or violence.” The council also declared that Muslims were obligated to help law enforcement officials protect civilians.
“It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities,” according to the Fiqh Council. The term “fiqh” refers to Islamic legal issues and understanding the faith’s religious law.
Islam has no central authority and the council serves an advisory role for American Muslims, who could number as high as 6 million. But some question whether the panel’s statements would sway extremists.
Leaders of major American Muslim organizations have taken pains since the September 11, 2001, attacks to condemn terrorism and deny any religious justification for it. They have intensified their efforts following the July 7 bombings in London and the botched attacks two weeks later. Other terrorist attacks have occurred in Egypt and Israel in recent weeks, along with continued bombings in Iraq.
The Muslim Public Affairs Council, an advocacy group based in Los Angeles, started the “National Anti-Terrorism Campaign” last year, urging Muslims to monitor their own communities, speak out more boldly against violence and work with law enforcement officials.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Washington-based civil rights organization, is running a TV ad and a petition-drive called “Not in the Name of Islam,” which repudiates terrorism. In New York and other cities, mosque leaders have joined advisory committees created by the FBI to build relations between law enforcement and their local communities.
“We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism,” the scholars wrote. “We pray for the safety and security of our country, the United States, and its people. We pray for the safety and security of all inhabitants of our planet.”
lets check the clock… september 11, 2001 - “last year” = ca. 3 years betwixt 9/11 and the start of MPAC’s NAT Campaign. ah well..
