So it is your opinion that labels an entire country as full of lazy people who eat greasy food.

Is it so cold where you live that you need blanket statements? :cheese:

Michael Moore is right. Speaking the truth is fairly entertaining. :lol:

Hello there, I hope this is the right thread to post this in :)

I’m a 27 year old male from The Netherlands and came to this site after watching… SICKO. Yup, I’m one of those.

I would like to share my opinion with you, please keep in mind this is my opinion only :)

I find it quite disturbing someone would make a website just to tell the world how evil a person is. It makes no sense to me. To me it must mean the person responsible for maintaining such a website has a lot of hate and negative energy to be so worried about what another person does. It’s not worth it. The owner of the website should have realised this when he realised he didn’t have any money to help his seriously ill wife (that’s how I understood it?) that such a hateful and non-productive site consumes so much time and energy and money.

I’m pretty sure Micheal Moore gives us all a lot of debate. Debate is good. It’s what democracy is based on. To claim Moore is a bad person and full of shit is just stupid. It would be the same for saying Bush is evil, which I don’t believe he is, even though I absolutely hate his international politics (which have proven to be as bad as alot of people presumed, ie Iraq, but that’s another story altogether).

No matter which way you turn it my American friends (no pun intended), as an outsider to American society (being European an all) he does highlight a very serious flaw in your society. In his movie the only thing he’s trying to show to people of every part of American society is that in other 1st world countries every single person, no matter what kind of income they have, receive a basic medical care. He also tries to outline that that *doesnt* make such countries communist. To think they are communist or socialist is very, very VERY short sighted. In that respect Moore highlights a viewpoint many Europeans have of Americans. (maybe he should move over here ;) Would you call Great Britain, France, Germany, Denmark, Holland and other such countries socialist or communist? Well, come to think of it, Great Britain and France for example are being run by socialist parties. Great Britain, the main partner in the war on (t)error with the USA.

I just read a comment from a Canadian that contradicts Moore’s viewpoint of Canadian medical care. I had to laugh at how extreme this person put his viewpoint across. You see, I lived in England for 3 years and am *very* familiar with the NHS (National Health Service). Every person pays a certain amount a month in tax to the NHS, depending on their income. So yes, completely opposit of American society where the rich get richer and the poor.. (fill in for yourself). Yes that’s socialistic, or maybe you should say HUMANE. Why do you think America is on the bottom of the list of countries with best medical care?? Time to come down from your high hill guys, medical care in America sucks balls and it’s your own fault because you keep the system alive.

Back to the point that I lived in England. Not all is good with the NHS. Not all is all rosey coloured with the healthcare system in Holland and Im pretty damn sure it isnt either in France. When I ask one of my English friends (some who used to work in NHS) about flaws in the NHS system, there are loads, from bad wages (compared to private firms) to long wait times for operations and such. This list is endless really! Moore only gives Americans insight in the fact that people WILL NEVER be turned down for medical attention based on INCOME. In that respect he’s right, European countries (among others) are far more humane then America. But then again we also are against the death penalty for the same reason really. The problems we have with our medical care in Europe are the huge waiting lists. This varies greatly from country to country. In one country you’ll have to wait a year for a certain operation, in another country much less. There are always ways to improve it, but at least the basics are there. It’s not all about money, because the firms have to abide by the law. THat means a certain level of insurrance for EVERY person, regardless.
On a sarcastic note, one should expect this of America. Every person has a right by law to carry a gun. But NOT everyone has a right by law to receive proper medical care :) Go figure.

I find it more disturbing that you feel the need to cross-post on the front page and in the forums.  See that blog entry for my responses to your many ill-informed statements.

nuts - 14 June 2007 06:41 PM

I would like to share my opinion with you, please keep in mind this is my opinion only :)

I find it quite disturbing someone would make a website just to tell the world how evil a person is. It makes no sense to me. To me it must mean the person responsible for maintaining such a website has a lot of hate and negative energy to be so worried about what another person does. It’s not worth it. The owner of the website should have realised this when he realised he didn’t have any money to help his seriously ill wife (that’s how I understood it?) that such a hateful and non-productive site consumes so much time and energy and money.

Before you post anything else on this subject, I’d suggest going to the front page of this site and reading JimK’s posts about the whole $12K thing. There are two sides to every story and Moore’s characterization of things differs somewhat from JimK’s.

You should also read a bit about what this site is about because your attacks on it are off the mark.

You mentioned that debate is healthy—well, that’s exactly what this site is about. It’s about response to/criticism of some of the things Moore says. It’s not about calling Moore evil or hating Moore. It’s about illustrating Moore’s (dishonest) style and calling him out on it. It’s about correcting the record on the misconceptions Moore sows with his editing techniques.

Considering I don’t genrally sift through the front page, how about reposting your response here, w0rf.

nuts - 14 June 2007 06:41 PM

To claim Moore is a bad person and full of shit is just stupid.

But still true… Unlike Moores work, which may be sly, but is based on far too many fibs and outright lies.

I find it quite disturbing someone would make a website just to tell the world how evil a person is. It makes no sense to me. To me it must mean the person responsible for maintaining such a website has a lot of hate and negative energy to be so worried about what another person does. It’s not worth it. The owner of the website should have realised this when he realised he didn’t have any money to help his seriously ill wife (that’s how I understood it?) that such a hateful and non-productive site consumes so much time and energy and money.

You understood wrong. On many points.

I’m pretty sure Micheal Moore gives us all a lot of debate. Debate is good. It’s what democracy is based on. To claim Moore is a bad person and full of shit is just stupid. It would be the same for saying Bush is evil, which I don’t believe he is, even though I absolutely hate his international politics (which have proven to be as bad as alot of people presumed, ie Iraq, but that’s another story altogether).

The reasons for the current thinking on Moore is based on his work and events surrounding them that are documented on the front page and in these forums. You are coming in 2/3 of the way through the proverbial movie, and saying you don’t understand why everyone sems to dislike the villian. Obviously, that’s an overly simplistic comparison.

Also, nobody claims that Mikey is “evil”. A liar, yes. Fat, sure. A socialist weasal, of course. I don’t se too many claims that he is “evil” though.

No matter which way you turn it my American friends (no pun intended), as an outsider to American society (being European an all) he does highlight a very serious flaw in your society.

Before you go on, you should be aware that there a goodly number of British posters, as well as a couple Austrailians, some Canadians, and even a sheep-humpin Kiwi. There’s even a French woman who posts from time to time, as well as the-one-gut-from-the-Scandinavian-country. The rest of us are American, but it must be noted that we are not the only ones.

In his movie the only thing he’s trying to show to people of every part of American society is that in other 1st world countries every single person, no matter what kind of income they have, receive a basic medical care. He also tries to outline that that *doesnt* make such countries communist. To think they are communist or socialist is very, very VERY short sighted. In that respect Moore highlights a viewpoint many Europeans have of Americans. (maybe he should move over here ;) Would you call Great Britain, France, Germany, Denmark, Holland and other such countries socialist or communist? Well, come to think of it, Great Britain and France for example are being run by socialist parties. Great Britain, the main partner in the war on (t)error with the USA.

Why is it that so many Europeans seem to think that we have poor people dying in the streets around hospitals? In this country, anyone can get emergency medical care, regardless of ability to pay. There are tons of programs for people to get free or reduced cost care. There are free and low-cost clinics. Some of these are government-sponsored, while others are not. Some are even run by *gasp* drug companies.

I just read a comment from a Canadian that contradicts Moore’s viewpoint of Canadian medical care. I had to laugh at how extreme this person put his viewpoint across. You see, I lived in England for 3 years and am *very* familiar with the NHS (National Health Service). Every person pays a certain amount a month in tax to the NHS, depending on their income. So yes, completely opposit of American society where the rich get richer and the poor.. (fill in for yourself). Yes that’s socialistic, or maybe you should say HUMANE. Why do you think America is on the bottom of the list of countries with best medical care?? Time to come down from your high hill guys, medical care in America sucks balls and it’s your own fault because you keep the system alive.

I didn’t read the comment you did. I don’t see how our medical system makes the “rich get richer and the poor..”. Again, see my post above.

Back to the point that I lived in England. Not all is good with the NHS. Not all is all rosey coloured with the healthcare system in Holland and Im pretty damn sure it isnt either in France. When I ask one of my English friends (some who used to work in NHS) about flaws in the NHS system, there are loads, from bad wages (compared to private firms) to long wait times for operations and such. This list is endless really! Moore only gives Americans insight in the fact that people WILL NEVER be turned down for medical attention based on INCOME.

Neither will we.

Our systrm ain’t great, but it has its advantages. The disadvantages that you point out are common misconceptions that are simply untrue. This is part of the problem of Moore. He mischaracterizes a lot of things. He bases things off of false pretenses. Sometimes, he fudges his data, or just outright makes shit up. Before penning another rant about America, and Americans, as well, take the time to educate yourself. Use this site. The archives go back a ways. Right now, you saound like many who come here for the first time. That’s not bad, but it has given an attitude to some of the old-timers. Take some timne. Read. Then post.

Lusepher - 14 June 2007 11:11 PM

........and even a sheep-humpin Kiwi..

Ah yes, r.j.

You mean that there are more of you now? Shit....

I don’t get where people who don’t live here think that poor people can’t get care.  I had to take a drug test before starting my new job yesterday, and I don’t have any medical insurance for at least 30 days.  As I was sitting in the waiting room, I read a sign that basically stated that it is illegal for them to refuse emergency room treatment to any legal citizen.  It also stated that if necessary, they are bound by law to refer you for further care as needed.  They also had the same sign posted in espanol.  They also will give you “sample” drugs that are provided by the drug manufacturers if you need them. 

And they didn’t even treat me like a drug-addled out of work loser…

Lusepher - 15 June 2007 08:53 AM

You mean that there are more of you now? Shit....

Yup. They’re multiplyin’

Since the proud event CM is all smiles and the Sheep is doing fine. ;)

crichton - 15 June 2007 09:08 AM

I don’t get where people who don’t live here think that poor people can’t get care.  I had to take a drug test before starting my new job yesterday, and I don’t have any medical insurance for at least 30 days.  As I was sitting in the waiting room, I read a sign that basically stated that it is illegal for them to refuse emergency room treatment to any legal citizen.  It also stated that if necessary, they are bound by law to refer you for further care as needed.  They also had the same sign posted in espanol.  They also will give you “sample” drugs that are provided by the drug manufacturers if you need them. 

And they didn’t even treat me like a drug-addled out of work loser…

That is because you have a job. No comment on the other part. :D

Lusepher - 14 June 2007 08:32 PM

Considering I don’t genrally sift through the front page, how about reposting your response here, w0rf.

Happy to oblige.  Forgive any crude editing:

I find it quite disturbing someone would make a website just to tell the world how evil a person is.

You’re right.  It’s much better when you make a website AND a series of… “documentaries” AND a series of books AND a TV show to decry the “evil” people that have “hijacked” your country.

The owner of the website should have realised this when he realised he didn’t have any money to help his seriously ill wife (that’s how I understood it?) that such a hateful and non-productive site consumes so much time and energy and money.

Try to keep up, please.  He HAD the money to help his wife.  He HAD the money to keep the site up.  Moore cut a check TWO YEARS after his request for help went out, and it was because his ISP host was SCAMMING HIM.  So the way you understood it is dead-ass wrong, and you need to sit your source down and have a talk with that person about getting stuff right for a change.

I’m pretty sure Micheal Moore gives us all a lot of debate. Debate is good.

Debate is good.  Manufacturing support for your position is not.

Seriously, I don’t know why people keep coming back to this.  So here I go: Socialized health care is bad, because in England it causes the death of 500,000 people every single year.  EVERY YEAR.

Now I don’t want to hear word one about how I just made that number up.  The point is, socialized health care is bad, and since I’m obviously right about that, inventing stuff about England that has no basis in fact DOES NOT MATTER.  You should all get on your knees and thank me for giving you all a lot of debate.  After all, that is the Holy Grail of Examining Social Issues.

To claim Moore is a bad person and full of shit is just stupid.

To claim Moore is a bad person is stupid.  To claim Moore is full of shit is an observation as basic as saying the sun rose this morning.

In his movie the only thing he’s trying to show to people of every part of American society is that in other 1st world countries every single person, no matter what kind of income they have, receive a basic medical care.

In AMERICA, every single person, no matter what kind of income they have, receives basic medical care.  Moore IS NOT ARGUING FOR BASIC MEDICAL CARE.  He is championing a system of UNIVERSAL, SINGLE-PAYER health care.  That means the government collects ALL health care fees and pays ALL health care bills.  That is NOT “basic medical care”.  That is EVERY form of care.  Words like “universal” and “all” are all-inclusive and carry no reservations.

Would you call Great Britain, France, Germany, Denmark, Holland and other such countries socialist or communist? Well, come to think of it, Great Britain and France for example are being run by socialist parties.

Why do you ask a rhetorical question, and then answer it “yes”?  I guess that makes you “very, very short-sighted”, per your own description.

Why do you think America is on the bottom of the list of countries with best medical care??

Depending on who’s doing your survey, the US is somewhere in the 20’s on life expectancy, in the high 30’s on overall health system performance, and in the low 70’s on “level of health”, whatever that means.  Now granted, there’s very little reason we should not be #1 in all of those, given the money we spend, but the last time I looked, there were something like 230 legally recognized countries in the world.  I don’t see any two-hundred-anything in those numbers.  So your argument about us being at the bottom of the list is ludicrous.

Moore only gives American insight in the fact that people WILL NEVER be turned down for medical attention based on INCOME.

In AMERICA, people are not turned down based on income.  They simply have to go to the ER for emergencies, or a free clinic for less-pressing issues.  I think what you mean is that in England, they turn people away because they are smokers rather than poor.

In that respect he’s right, European countries (among others) are far more humane then America.

Londoner has told us that Europeans never look at things in terms of being “better” or “worse” so I think you two need to get in touch and get your stories straightened out.

Back to the point that I lived in England. Not all is good with the NHS. Not all is all rosey coloured with the healthcare system in Holland and Im pretty damn sure it isnt either in France.

Well, I guess what you guys need is some fat guy in a ball cap to treat your health care systems with sarcasm and derision, in order to “bring you debate” so you can “fix” your “broken” and “barbaric” systems.  Those are the only two choices that are on the table, after all, either “utopian” or “barbaric”, cause if the system isn’t “utopian” then Moore is obviously right and we’re all just a bunch of angry bitter jerks.  /sarcasm

{Sheep tried to type}