I am living in Canada but was born in the U.K and I must say that there probably is flaws in our Canadian system but I have yet to see them. I pay my monthly Medical benefits to the Province (Health care is actually moderated through eac of the provinces governments) and neither myself nor anyone I know has ever (touch wood) had a bad experience in the system. I can see any doctor I like, prescriptions are subsidised through Pharmacare (Provincial assistance) and waiting times are low. I was the victim of a shooting some years ago and nearly lost my arm. I was transported by helicopter to a hospital in Calgary Alberta. I was taken to the E.R and had an angiocardiogram. I had 3 surgeries including skin grafting and stayed in the hospital for 2 weeks. I endured a year of therapy both physical and psychiatric. My Bill came to a Big Fat $0.00! I am sure there are canadians who do have bad experiences and I’m sure the system could use some tweaking here and there but overall I believe it works. I have never worried here or in the U.K about getting sick or injuring nyself and not being able to pay.
Having said all that the U.K system is much as described by Moore in his film. There are problems however. Yes prescriptions are fixed at around six pounds sixty but waiting times can vary in E.R’s. I have had 20 minute waits and I have had 5 hour waits. I do know some people in the U.K who choose to take out separate private health insurance to access certain tests and MRI’s quicker. Dental is also covered by the NHS (as are glasses and eye tests) and do good work however I often would opt to pay my Dentist privately for better materials if it was involing my front teeth.
But you must understand these problems are immaterial even if in some circumstances waiting times are longer or you get bumped for a private patient (I know of 2 private hospitals who regularily have to send patients with complications to NHS hospitals because it is the private company who isn’t equipped to deal with certain problems). You will never be ignored in these countries, never be turned away and never be refused life saving treatments. I would gladly wait for a month or two for a surgery at the very worst than be told by a corporation like an HMO that I am never going to be treated.
I am a Moore Fan and I know that he spins his work to reflect his message but Americans are given spin by their Government everday. Moore I think has to fight fire with fire If it takes spin and omission to lead the american people to his message then so be it whats the worst thats going to happen? You’re all going to get universal care? At least Mikes spin doesnt lead you to believe in an unneccessary war which will kill 1000’s of you, take away your social security and leave your veterans and heros to suffer.
P.S I do agree that the gift from Mike of $12000 is not a cause for a change of ideals or political opinion. Theres no way Mike would change his views if he was given even 12 million so you should’nt be expected to do the same. However Mike wasn’t looking for you to change your opinion of him, if you had then that would have made you look foolish and insincere. I believe you should have accepted it, you did thank him, your wife is recovering partly due to his help and he gets a funny final note for his film. It amounted to a cheeky poke in the ribs from Mike to you.
But you must understand these problems are immaterial even if in some circumstances waiting times are longer or you get bumped for a private patient (I know of 2 private hospitals who regularily have to send patients with complications to NHS hospitals because it is the private company who isn’t equipped to deal with certain problems). You will never be ignored in these countries, never be turned away and never be refused life saving treatments. I would gladly wait for a month or two for a surgery at the very worst than be told by a corporation like an HMO that I am never going to be treated.
I’m seriously thinking of making an FAQ about the American healthcare system.
You CANNOT be turned away in America for life-saving care. It is against the law. A hospital can try to make payment arrangements after the fact, but you cannot be denied the care. Now, an HMO or insurance company can deny a claim after the fact, or not pre-approve an elective procedure, but any sort of serious, life-saving procedure cannot be denied. You will never be turned away in an emergency room. They cannot do this, by law.
In most cases, a hospital will be glad to set up payment plans, or even comp the care in some cases. So too are there a whole host of programs, clinics, and trials that can result in free/reduced cost care. Some of these are government programs, and some of them are private concerns. Often, the eeevil drug companies set up programs to give medications to clinics or poor patients.
lsDavis
P.S I do agree that the gift from Mike of $12000 is not a cause for a change of ideals or political opinion. Theres no way Mike would change his views if he was given even 12 million so you should’nt be expected to do the same. However Mike wasn’t looking for you to change your opinion of him, if you had then that would have made you look foolish and insincere. I believe you should have accepted it, you did thank him, your wife is recovering partly due to his help and he gets a funny final note for his film. It amounted to a cheeky poke in the ribs from Mike to you.
Have you read the actual timeline of events concerning the $12 grand that JimK has put on the front page of this site? If not, I suggest that you read it before coming to the conclusion that is was “a cheeky poke in the ribs...” Moore reconstructed the timeline to fabricate a false premise. He deceived his audience. Hell, he constructed the entire event, did a cut and paste edit job to make a point that, in reality, didn’t exist. All that at the expense of a sick woman.
I’m sick to my stomach of these Moore-Ons who keep saying that the end justifies the means. My God, moore exploited a sick woman from a financially strapped family in order to sell his movie!?! How can anyone see that as a noble act?
But you must understand these problems are immaterial even if in some circumstances waiting times are longer or you get bumped for a private patient (I know of 2 private hospitals who regularily have to send patients with complications to NHS hospitals because it is the private company who isn’t equipped to deal with certain problems). You will never be ignored in these countries, never be turned away and never be refused life saving treatments. I would gladly wait for a month or two for a surgery at the very worst than be told by a corporation like an HMO that I am never going to be treated.
I’m seriously thinking of making an FAQ about the American healthcare system.
You CANNOT be turned away in America for life-saving care. It is against the law. A hospital can try to make payment arrangements after the fact, but you cannot be denied the care. Now, an HMO or insurance company can deny a claim after the fact, or not pre-approve an elective procedure, but any sort of serious, life-saving procedure cannot be denied. You will never be turned away in an emergency room. They cannot do this, by law.
In most cases, a hospital will be glad to set up payment plans, or even comp the care in some cases. So too are there a whole host of programs, clinics, and trials that can result in free/reduced cost care. Some of these are government programs, and some of them are private concerns. Often, the eeevil drug companies set up programs to give medications to clinics or poor patients.
Exactly. In my home county, they have a group called the Fremont Area Foundation, underwritten to a large extent by Gerber Baby Foods (which I believe is now owned by Nestle). Among other philanthropic activities, they pay poor people’s medical bills in the county when people can’t get help otherwise. They also have affiliate programs in three other counties (including the one where the hospital is located in my following anecdote).
A few years back, my brother was in between jobs and had no medical insurance. He came into my room one night and said that he was having trouble breathing, he had chest pains and he was feeling nauseous. He wanted me to drive him to the hospital some 20 miles away. I said “No, I’m doing what they teach you in First Responder training, I’m calling the ambulance”, realizing that if he was having a heart attack that they could start treating and stabilizing him as he was enroute. As it turned out he was having an anxiety attack (no doubt caused in part by not having an income), and the doctor gave him some anti-depressants (free samples) to help him cope for a couple of weeks. Not once did the ambulance drivers, ER staff or the on-call doctor hesitate treating him pending checking his records for medical insurance.
If I recall correctly, the ER room was a few hundred dollars and I believe that the ambulance ride was nearly $1000. Knowing that my brother was already suffering from anxiety, before we left the hospital for home, they gave us all the contact info we’d need to set up a payment plan for the bills. They said that it could be as little as $5 a week, just as long as something was coming in to them. They also gave us the contact info for the Fremont Area Foundation. When my brother got all the bills together, he set up an appointment at the Foundation. When he came home he told me that they had arranged to pay about 98% of the bill, including paying the ambulance ride in its entirety.
Check it out:
About Us
The Fremont Area Community Foundation (FACF) is one of the largest community foundations in the nation on a per capita basis, serving a population of nearly 50,000 with assets around $189 million. In 2005, the FACF Board of Trustees approved grants of over $9 million to non-profit agencies within Newaygo County, Michigan. We are located in the middle of the rural, west-Michigan city of Fremont, known to many as the ‘Baby Food Capital of the World’ and home to Gerber Products.
2002 marked FACF’s 30th anniversary as a community foundation, however our roots go back to the early 1930’s when a few visionary philanthropists created funds for the betterment of their community (see Foundation History). These funds were incorporated in 1951 forming the private Fremont Foundation. Twenty-two years later, the Foundation was reorganized into its current structure as a community foundation.
Today, we manage more than 390 funds, including three supporting organizations and three geographic affiliate foundations. We offer donors a wonderful way to fulfill their philanthropic desire to give back to the community, while maximizing their financial benefits (see Donor Services).
Whether you’re exploring philanthropic options or grant funding, we’re prepared to help you cross the bridge that connects the needs of Newaygo County with the convictions of the heart.
Surely if a bunch of us redneck, country bumpkin hicks can set up something like this, Metropolis, Anywhere can do the same. Heck, we can even come up with $12,000 without feeling the need to crow about it…
Sounds like a good idea… If I wanted to start a non profit, it sounds like a good one (take donations to make grants to people with medical bills they need help with)…
Please understand I am not American and have not taken Moores film as a factual representation of the whole system. So emergency care cannot be denied, but it was posted that an HMO can refuse to pay after the fact. Does this mean that you will receive life saving care regardless but may be hit with a bill of potentially tens of thousands of dollars if you are uninsured? If you do not have the means to pay said bill can the HMO come after your assests ie: house. What if the care is not emergency but a potentially fatal disease? If the HMO rejects the claim for treatment will you be left to self-fund or die? The sample pills that you can recieve for free are they enough to treat you on an ongoing basis? Basically what I dont understand is can you be denied your right to life or be bankrupted if you have no way to pay? Ok there are schemes in place to help cover some or even most of the cost as posted above but surely they can’t help everyone or can they? All Im saying is that surely some Americans must at least be interested in the possibility of enjoying (as I do) a system where there is no concern as to who will pay or how much a week it will cost or who Im going to have to meet with (cap in hand) to ask for financial help. All I’ve ever had to worry about when Im sick is how Im going to get better not how am I going to pay.
Also I get that there are non profits offering grants and assistance. But with numbers as small as 9 million in a country with your population can you honestly say that every American is receiving the care that they need despite having no insurance. Surely If its true that 50 million have no insurance the cost to keep them well and alive comes to much much more than the total of any charitable grants that are available.
Incidentally The NHS in the UK does not turn away smokers but for some operations where smoking is a detriment to the recovery and prognosis you will be asked to quit before surgery. The same applies to joint replacements if you are overweight and this will compromise the effectiveness of the replacement you will be asked to lose weight for the surgery. Some people have been upset by this but if your doctor said to you that he knew a way to vastly increase the successfulness of your surgery whilst drastically reducing the risks wouldn’t you want him to do it?
Does this mean that you will receive life saving care regardless but may be hit with a bill of potentially tens of thousands of dollars if you are uninsured? If you do not have the means to pay said bill can the HMO come after your assests ie: house. What if the care is not emergency but a potentially fatal disease? If the HMO rejects the claim for treatment will you be left to self-fund or die?
Those questions do not make sense if you are assuming that the person is uninsured, unless these are not supposed to be related.
The sample pills that you can recieve for free are they enough to treat you on an ongoing basis?
In some cases, yes.
Ok there are schemes in place to help cover some or even most of the cost as posted above but surely they can’t help everyone or can they?
In a system where we ask the government to let us take care of ourselves, if any failing exists, it is because we are not doing enough to take care of ourselves/each other. What it means is that more of us need to step up in a better fashion.
All Im saying is that surely some Americans must at least be interested in the possibility of enjoying (as I do) a system where there is no concern as to who will pay or how much a week it will cost or who Im going to have to meet with (cap in hand) to ask for financial help. All I’ve ever had to worry about when Im sick is how Im going to get better not how am I going to pay.
I’m sure just about anybody might like (on the surface) the idea of having someone else relieve you of personal responsibility. I just don’t like the price tag attached to it.
Some people have been upset by this but if your doctor said to you that he knew a way to vastly increase the successfulness of your surgery whilst drastically reducing the risks wouldn’t you want him to do it?
Still, you must agree that there is a difference between refusing payment and refusing treatment.
LsDavis
Surely If its true that 50 million have no insurance the cost to keep them well and alive comes to much much more than the total of any charitable grants that are available.
I like how this number keeps going up and up. Not even two years ago it was widely reported as 40 million. Then 42 million, then 43 million, then 48 million and now 50 million.
As far as the Patriot Act goes, name 3 verifiable cases of the patriot act taking away individuals rights.
-In a system where we ask the government to let us take care of ourselves, if any failing exists, it is because we are not doing enough to take care of ourselves/each other. What it means is that more of us need to step up in a better fashion.-
Now I’m no fan of communism but your right, what would have happened to you if nobody had stepped up to offer help when the site was struggling what if nothing had come in. It seems that in an ‘everyman for himself’ system people get left behind… millions of people get left behind everyday. The well off support this kind of system because they can afford to step up and help themselves. Maybe your system can work If like you say a bit more can be done to eradicate these failings but things aren’t being done, I believe in capitalism but left to run unchecked results in the US having 2.5 Millionaires in a population of over 301 million and then bush goes and drops the maximum tax bracket to 35% in 2001 which helps out who? Those 2.5 millionaires.
About 3.5 million US residents (about 1% of the population), including 1.35 million children, have been homeless for a significant period of time. Over 37,000 homeless individuals (including 16,000 children) stay in shelters in New York every night. This information was gathered by the Urban Institute, but actual numbers might be higher.
3.5 Million Forget Healthcare how about a roof! and don’t think I’m picking on the U.S here Canada has a serious issue with homelessness yes we take care of their health but then we kick em straight back out onto the street. There are programs to help but with so many mental health issues it’s hard to get to them.
On November 14, 2001 President George W. Bush signed the USA PATRIOT (Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (I kid you not)) Act into law and the United States entered a new era in law enforcement and civil liberties. The law was passed in response to the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Many argue that the law is essential to safeguard the lives of America’s citizens while others hold that it is an unforgivable breach of civil liberties. The bill was first proposed on September 24, 2001 by the Bush administration. The following is a brief summary of some of the major points of the bill:
* Grants broader authority to law enforcement officials in regard to conducting digital surveillance such as wire taps and email monitoring.
* Allows federal authorities to conduct searches without informing those being investigated, which is normally standard procedure.
* Lays the basis for broader cooperation between the FBI, CIA, NSA and INS in criminal investigations, involving the CIA and NSA in domestic issues on an unprecedented scale.
* Allows for labeling of vocal protestors as “domestic terrorists”. Activities which could brand these groups as domestic terrorists have already been taken by groups such as Operation Rescue, the Earth Liberation Front and Greenpeace.
* Grants the FBI access to business, personnel, medical, travel, library and educational records without the consent of the business or the individual.
* Allows law enforcement officers to side-step the requirement for a search warrant if it “may seriously jeopardize an investigation
Now there are over 301 million verifiable cases of liberty being taken away You personally prior to 9/11 had the undeniable right to privacy when it came to business, personnel, medical, travel, library and educational records. You no longer have that guarantee, that is a loss of freedom.
Sen. Dick Durbin said that it’s difficult to pinpoint specific abuses of the Patriot Act because many actions are carried out in secret under the laws.
But you want more specifics it’s not enough for you to just know that that freedom is no longer there because it hasn’ affected you yet ok:
1:
The 2004 revocation of a travel visa for noted Swiss scholar of Islam Tariq Ramadan, the suit contends that an “ideological exclusion” provision of the Patriot Act is being used to impede the free circulation of scholars and scholarly debate that are integral to academic freedom. Commenting on the suit, AAR Executive Director Barbara DeConcini stated that “preventing foreign scholars like Professor Ramadan from visiting the U.S. limits not only the ability of scholars here to enhance their own knowledge, but also their ability to inform students, journalists, public policy makers, and other members of the public who rely on scholars’ work to acquire a better understanding of critical current issues involving religion.”
2:
The case against Al-Hussayen, the son of a retired Saudi education minister who had been studying in the U.S. for nine years, raised questions from the start.
His arrest 16 months ago shocked the local Muslim community in the college town of Moscow, where he was known as a family-oriented father of three who shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks organized a blood drive and a candlelight vigil that condemned the attacks as an affront to Islam.
He was eventually charged under a section of the Patriot Act that makes it illegal to provide “expert advice or assistance” to terrorists. The provision was declared unconstitutional by a federal judge in Los Angeles in January, although that ruling was not binding on the Idaho case.
“In some respects, this was the broadest reach in all of the government’s anti-terrorism prosecutions,” said David Cole, a Georgetown University Law Center professor.
“When President Bush (news - web sites) and [Vice President] Dick Cheney (news - web sites) say, ‘You have not shown me a single abuse of the Patriot Act,’ I think people can now say, ‘Look at the Sami Omar Al-Hussayen case — a case where the government sought to criminalize pure speech and was resoundingly defeated.’ “
3:
In what may be the first documented case of a non-terrorist, American citizen being held without charges under terms of the so-called “Patriot Act”, Arizona rancher Casey Nethercott was arrested March 1, 2004 by exclusive and arbitrary order of Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano.
Using a “Governor’s Warrant” to hold Nethercott without charges in the Pima County Jail located in Tucson, Arizona, Nethercott was released to the State of Texas on March 22, 2004. According to the records clerk of the Pima County Jail, no one knows where in Texas Nethercott was taken. In fact, she informed me that Nethercott would have to call someone to let him or her know where he is being held. That is, of course, only if Nethercott is allowed to make a telephone call.
Nethercott is a member of Ranch Rescue, the citizens group organized by Jack Foote, which has been using volunteers along the American southern border to capture and detain illegal aliens entering this nation for our undermanned Border Patrol. If the allegations of Ranch Rescue are true, Arizona Governor Napolitano used provisions of the Patriot Act to arrest Nethercott for activities having nothing to do with terrorism, and having everything to do with Napolitano’s personal and opposing position on how matters of illegal immigration should be handled.
Hey, pinch yourself and remember that the term, “Terrorist” is not a well-defined term, and is therefore quite subjective. For example, you may recall that King George bestowed that term on our future first president, George Washington and his merry band. Perhaps Governor Napolitano thinks a terrorist is anyone who disagrees with her. The standing rule of all law is that if it can be abused, it will be abused.
