I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
But was she reading when I said this?
Sethery - 11 December 2007 07:02 PM
CM -
...it could equally have happened the other way around.
You’ll have to trust me on this: no, it couldn’t have.
Clearly not. :P
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:37 PM
Rapid R - 11 December 2007 06:32 PM
Sethery - 11 December 2007 06:21 PM
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:18 PM
...we women go nuts about nothing.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
I know that didn’t say that, I did. I still have some problems to quote things on this website. No, you didn’t say that.
I was just joking that even though I didn’t say it, I very well might have been thinking it. If that joke didn’t make it through a language barrier, FrenchConnection might be able to explain my inflection. But then the question arises about whether it was really a joke in the first place, which I’ll just leave open to wonderment.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
But was she reading when I said this?
Sethery - 11 December 2007 07:02 PM
CM -
...it could equally have happened the other way around.
You’ll have to trust me on this: no, it couldn’t have.
Clearly not. :P
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:37 PM
Rapid R - 11 December 2007 06:32 PM
Sethery - 11 December 2007 06:21 PM
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:18 PM
...we women go nuts about nothing.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
I know that didn’t say that, I did. I still have some problems to quote things on this website. No, you didn’t say that.
I was just joking that even though I didn’t say it, I very well might have been thinking it. If that joke didn’t make it through a language barrier, FrenchConnection might be able to explain my inflection. But then the question arises about whether it was really a joke in the first place, which I’ll just leave open to wonderment.
I think we’re talking about the same thing but putting different values on emotional input. What I call being more rational, you call “bottling up” emotions. Some decisions really need more weight applied to the rational component, and I really do believe that, generally, men are better at moving the weight in that direction than women. I’ll admit that it’s more of an axiom than a proven statement, but I suspect I’d find more agreement about it than you would against it. It’s fine that you don’t accept that axiom, but we’re probably not going to convince each other of anything without putting it to the test.
I would certainly not consider that ‘bottling up’ emotions is necessarily the same as being ‘more rational’. It might actually be more rational to say what you really think, and express yourself honestly in terms of making it known how strongly you feel. A more rational decision may be made on that basis. Of course if someone is being ridiculous and not making a rational argument, then at least getting it out into the open can result in that being demonstrated. Getting all the cards out on the table (emotional, rational pros and cons, etc).
So perhaps there is a difference between a rational argument and a rational decision being made.
Again, this goes back to the axiom above. If you don’t accept that, then you have to believe what you said. But my experience leads me to accept that axiom. Believe me, in college I was a pretty strong feminist, possibly because that’s the only way to pick up the few chicks that at a geek school (the last part there also reinforces the axiom for me).
Sorry, I’m missing that last part - how did that reinforce the axiom?
You’ll have to trust me on this: no, it couldn’t have.
;) Ok well I guess yours is another personal example of a relationship that works in a certain way.
Perhaps my world is somewhat coloured by these two funademental aspects:
1) I’ve been with my wife for 13 years, or 40% of my life. Or if we are adults at say 16, then 76% of my adult life.
2) I think my wife is more able to make rational arguments better than I am (although I think have improved, mostly by learning from her).
Why should the XY have the deciding vote? Honestly, it’s not necessarily about having the deciding vote, it’s about ensuring all parties are treated fairly. That’s leadership. If an impasse is reached through an otherwise fair and respectful difference of opinion, don’t just give up your position, and don’t force yours on her. Flip a coin. We learned that from our marriage couneslor.
When making a big decision in a marriage/partnership, I don’t believe that ‘leadership’ is relevant. It’s about communication, the willingness to listen and understand the other view, and then either compromise or acceptance that one of you is going to get their way on the particular issue.
If everyone were a perfect listener, compromiser, and accepter, you’d be perfectly correct. But when the communication goes sour, who calms things down? Sometimes both sides get so hard-headed that someone has to realize that no decision is going to be made properly and that it should be deferred for a while. It actually does take leadership to calm down, calm the other down, and either sort out the communication or defer the decision for a few hours or days, depending on the urgency.
I’m not sure that you have to be ‘perfect’ in those ways. Just good enough.
I accept that it could be called ‘leadership’ when someone takes control of the situation when it gets out of hand. Of course if it isn’t the same person doing it all the time, then does that mean that both or neither are ‘leaders’?
And again, the chromosome doesn’t seem to be me relevant to that. Both you and Fifi can tell me that in your experiences it’s the male that always (or mostly) takes that leadership position, but that doesn’t prove or even suggest anything ‘inherent’ to me. I can equally point to men taking ‘leadership’ (in their own mind) by giving the wife a smack to get her to ‘know her place’. Again, meaningless in terms of providing a rational argument as to why he is ulimately the one to make the best decision. Even if we don’t take that extreme example, many women don’t need the smack, the distinct impression that one may be around the corner is enough for them to acquiesce.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
But was she reading when I said this?
Sethery - 11 December 2007 07:02 PM
CM -
...it could equally have happened the other way around.
You’ll have to trust me on this: no, it couldn’t have.
Clearly not. :P
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:37 PM
Rapid R - 11 December 2007 06:32 PM
Sethery - 11 December 2007 06:21 PM
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:18 PM
...we women go nuts about nothing.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
I know that didn’t say that, I did. I still have some problems to quote things on this website. No, you didn’t say that.
I was just joking that even though I didn’t say it, I very well might have been thinking it. If that joke didn’t make it through a language barrier, FrenchConnection might be able to explain my inflection. But then the question arises about whether it was really a joke in the first place, which I’ll just leave open to wonderment.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
But was she reading when I said this?
Sethery - 11 December 2007 07:02 PM
CM -
...it could equally have happened the other way around.
You’ll have to trust me on this: no, it couldn’t have.
Clearly not. :P
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:37 PM
Rapid R - 11 December 2007 06:32 PM
Sethery - 11 December 2007 06:21 PM
Fifi - 11 December 2007 06:18 PM
...we women go nuts about nothing.
I didn’t say that. I didn’t NOT say that either, but I definitely didn’t say that. :)
That’s what you get for letting your wife read over your shoulder. lol
I know that didn’t say that, I did. I still have some problems to quote things on this website. No, you didn’t say that.
I was just joking that even though I didn’t say it, I very well might have been thinking it. If that joke didn’t make it through a language barrier, FrenchConnection might be able to explain my inflection. But then the question arises about whether it was really a joke in the first place, which I’ll just leave open to wonderment.
Ha!Ha!Ha! Believe me, I can go really nuts!!!
That time of the month huh.
/joke
... Not only at that time, it just get worse at that time!
Why should the XY have the deciding vote? Honestly, it’s not necessarily about having the deciding vote, it’s about ensuring all parties are treated fairly. That’s leadership. If an impasse is reached through an otherwise fair and respectful difference of opinion, don’t just give up your position, and don’t force yours on her. Flip a coin. We learned that from our marriage couneslor.
When making a big decision in a marriage/partnership, I don’t believe that ‘leadership’ is relevant. It’s about communication, the willingness to listen and understand the other view, and then either compromise or acceptance that one of you is going to get their way on the particular issue.
If everyone were a perfect listener, compromiser, and accepter, you’d be perfectly correct. But when the communication goes sour, who calms things down? Sometimes both sides get so hard-headed that someone has to realize that no decision is going to be made properly and that it should be deferred for a while. It actually does take leadership to calm down, calm the other down, and either sort out the communication or defer the decision for a few hours or days, depending on the urgency.
I’m not sure that you have to be ‘perfect’ in those ways. Just good enough.
Fine. If everyone were a “good enough” listener, compromiser, and accepter… Did that really get much better?
I accept that it could be called ‘leadership’ when someone takes control of the situation when it gets out of hand. Of course if it isn’t the same person doing it all the time, then does that mean that both or neither are ‘leaders’?
I’m not saying each side must take a position and hold it for all time. Surely, women at times show better leadership than men. Sometimes it’s because the woman is the expert in the decision being made, sometimes it’s because the man got more emotional than the woman. I’m speaking in trends and generalities here. Generally, men set aside their emotions more easily than their female partners when making a decision. Fifi is upset that men today (generally) have become afraid to assert that trait, for fear of emotional outbursts from women (generally).
And again, the chromosome doesn’t seem to be me relevant to that.
Again, you don’t accept the axiom. That’s fine, but again, we won’t get much further on this.
Both you and Fifi can tell me that in your experiences it’s the male that always (or mostly) takes that leadership position, but that doesn’t prove or even suggest anything ‘inherent’ to me. I can equally point to men taking ‘leadership’ (in their own mind) by giving the wife a smack to get her to ‘know her place’. Again, meaningless in terms of providing a rational argument as to why he is ulimately the one to make the best decision. Even if we don’t take that extreme example, many women don’t need the smack, the distinct impression that one may be around the corner is enough for them to acquiesce.
Such a man is not a leader, but a thug. Hopefully a real leader will put him in his place, and I have no problem if that leader turns out to be a woman. I don’t know why you even mentioned that. It’s not like anybody can call what they do “leadership” and be recognized by everybody else as a leader.
Besides, there are abusive wives too. Do you call them “leaders”?
Fine. If everyone were a “good enough” listener, compromiser, and accepter… Did that really get much better?
I thought you were essentially suggesting that I was decribing an impossible situation. I don’t think I was. I wasn’t trying to be picky or anal.
I’m not saying each side must take a position and hold it for all time. Surely, women at times show better leadership than men. Sometimes it’s because the woman is the expert in the decision being made, sometimes it’s because the man got more emotional than the woman. I’m speaking in trends and generalities here. Generally, men set aside their emotions more easily than their female partners when making a decision. Fifi is upset that men today (generally) have become afraid to assert that trait, for fear of emotional outbursts from women (generally).
When I say ‘doing it all the time’ I’m not taking about the same position. I’m saying that a couple could have 50 different arguments and in 20 times it might be one person that ‘leads’ and in 20 others it might be the other person, and 10 times neither might.
If we are speaking in trends and generalities, then we are getting away from whether there is an inherent right for the man to take control and show ‘leadership’.
Does a trend of generality mean that there is an ‘inherent right’? Because that is what I understand Fifi to be saying. She’s not talking about relevant situations, but as a whole. She has a firm belief that the inherent right of a man to be dominant in a relationship exists.
Such a man is not a leader, but a thug. Hopefully a real leader will put him in his place, and I have no problem if that leader turns out to be a woman. I don’t know why you even mentioned that. It’s not like anybody can call what they do “leadership” and be recognized by everybody else as a leader.
Besides, there are abusive wives too. Do you call them “leaders”?
It was really to lead into the second example, which I’m sure is much much more common. Where is the line drawn between showing ‘leadership’ and actually asserting your power (whether it be physical or emotional).
By the way, I don’t consider them leaders, which is why I said “in their own mind”.
Out of interest, what has changed in your mind since your college days where you say you held a feminist view? What have you discovered was incorrect? Or if that’s not the right way to describe what I assume was a slow shift, how would you analyse what your experiences did to your thinking?
Fine. If everyone were a “good enough” listener, compromiser, and accepter… Did that really get much better?
I thought you were essentially suggesting that I was decribing an impossible situation. I don’t think I was. I wasn’t trying to be picky or anal.
I was pointing out that leadership is needed in a whole lot of cases, because most people don’t behave even close to ideally.
I’m not saying each side must take a position and hold it for all time. Surely, women at times show better leadership than men. Sometimes it’s because the woman is the expert in the decision being made, sometimes it’s because the man got more emotional than the woman. I’m speaking in trends and generalities here. Generally, men set aside their emotions more easily than their female partners when making a decision. Fifi is upset that men today (generally) have become afraid to assert that trait, for fear of emotional outbursts from women (generally).
When I say ‘doing it all the time’ I’m not taking about the same position. I’m saying that a couple could have 50 different arguments and in 20 times it might be one person that ‘leads’ and in 20 others it might be the other person, and 10 times neither might.
We’re on the same page. By “position” I meant the positions of “leader” or “follower”. Looking back, it was rather ambiguous.
If we are speaking in trends and generalities, then we are getting away from whether there is an inherent right for the man to take control and show ‘leadership’.
Does a trend of generality mean that there is an ‘inherent right’? Because that is what I understand Fifi to be saying. She’s not talking about relevant situations, but as a whole. She has a firm belief that the inherent right of a man to be dominant in a relationship exists.
I’m not arguing for any “inherent right” of men, or else I’d be referring to this as a civil/legal matter. I really don’t think Fifi is arguing that either, although let me know if I missed something obvious. As I mentioned above, I think she’s upset that men have become afraid to assert the traits that make them good leaders in the home out of fear for their spouse’s wrath. Have you ever heard that women often don’t like to report to other women? I’ve observed it. Have you ever noticed that the mother/daughter-in-law relationship is usually more strained that the father/son-in law? I live it. I think it has to do with how men more easily let go of emotinosn than women.
Out of interest, what has changed in your mind since your college days where you say you held a feminist view? What have you discovered was incorrect? Or if that’s not the right way to describe what I assume was a slow shift, how would you analyse what your experiences did to your thinking?
It happened too slowly to explain right now, but it was part of a general shift from being more liberal to becoming quite conservative. Regarding feminism, I can attribute some of that shift to reading Wendy McElroy’s weekly articles on FoxNews.com about “independent” feminism. She made a lot of sense, and when I looked at her sometimes rather harsh criticisms of mainstream feminism, I found she was right. They basically had to do with the folly of attaining empowerment through victimhood and seeking equality with an “opponent” by demoting them instead of promoting yourself.
I don’t agree that someone has to be the boss. Overall that is. In certain situations one person will play to their strengths and the other will let them. But, personally at least, I don’t see any need or desire for one to be more dominant than the other.
Being the boss does not equal “domination”. Taking the surname of your husband won’t kill you. On the other hand, if you insist, with a lawyer present, on keeping yours, it kinda looks like you’re keeping a part of “you” to yourself.
This equality thingy is supposed to apply to ones children too. They are supposedly equals too?
As the mug shots of the alleged killers of NFL star Sean Taylor were shown on television, I kept wondering when we were going to see their parents step forward. I saw a couple of mothers, but their dads were missing in action.
Roland Martin credits two strong parents with raising him to do right by them.
Dads matter, and it’s ridiculous for us to act as if all it takes is a loving mom.
Now, I don’t know what it means not to have a father in your life. I’m not familiar with a mom being strung out on a crack binge. And when my parents were called to the school when there was a discipline problem, Mom and Dad didn’t go off on the teacher or principal. In fact, I can still feel the pain of my elementary school principal’s paddle being applied to my butt when I acted a fool. The principal could only pop me three times. Dad? He had no limit.
Bottom line: I can sit here today and celebrate them and enjoy a wonderful life because my parents were hell-bent on raising their children to do right by them, especially my dad.
let me take an example. When I first arrive in America, I had to take the bus and maybe you don’t know, but people talk to each other. women would talk about their lives and that’s how it went:
- Are you married?
- yes, are you?
-No, I’m divorced
-What happened?
-Well, he was a drunk!
- Really, why was he a drunk?
- Don’t know, he was just a drunk!
- That’s why you divorced him?
-Yep!
-Was he a drunk when you married him?
- Yep...but I was pregnant!
- So why did you stay with him?
-… because I was pregnant
- Did you ever try to find out why he was a drunk?
- Well… no, it’s not my problem
- Yes it is your problem. you married him and you were carrying his kid!
- What do you want me to do?
- Maybe find out why he was a drunk, listen to him, understand him, help him out!
- Why should I do this? this is not my problem!
- Yes, it is your problem, he is a part of you, a part of you kid! By saying “yes” the day you married him, you were suppose to help him, support him and love him no matter what!
The discussion would most of the time stop right there. My point is that people today get married knowing that if there is a problem. they can get out of it very easily, it’s easier to get out of the problem than to stick with the person and help him/her out. When we got together Frenchconnection and I, we came from very abusive relationships. It was really tough, but we stick together, help each other, fought, screamed, cried, hurt, reconciled and got over it, Today, I challenge anybody to take each other apart. When I say that women to shut up it’s because they don’t want to take the heat. As soon as they don’t get what they want. they want a divorce, knowing that the judge is on their side because they don’t have a penis, poor little things!!! They sure don’t want the man but they’ll take his money no problem! I’ve been divorced and had a non born kid in my belly. I never asked for a dime! If I dont’ want the guy, I don’t want his money. In today’s sociaty in America, I’ve seen too many men having to pay forever but don’t have the right to see their children and this is not right!!! Kids need to know where they come from to know where they are going, and yes, I’m mad at American women that don’t let their kids see their father (whether they pay their childsupport or not) It is selfish for the kids, and know that even if I am a French woman. I know what I am talking about, I’m married to an American divorced man!
You mean actually following the vows of marriage? I am all for it.
For better or for worse.:D
That is why I lost all respect for Bill Clinton. He cheated on his wife.
You mean actually following the vows of marriage? I am all for it.
For better or for worse.:D
That is why I lost all respect for Bill Clinton. He cheated on his wife.
Not only this, I don’t see why kids from divorced couples can’t see their father because Mom said so, this is so selfish! When it comes to collect child support, they are not that selfish!
Yep. I see more parents punish their kids because they got a divorce.
Parents playing the kids against each other. Love turns to hate pretty damn quick sometimes.
It’s a shame.
