I don’t believe there is anything indecent about it at all. While women’s breasts can be an alluring and an attractive site (to me at least) they also serve a functional purpose from time to time and that is where breast-feeding comes in.
Every body part serves a functional purpose. We’re generally not allowed to show ALL our body parts, though.
True, but the functional parts of the ones we are not generally allowed to show include lewd acts and waste evacuation.
Sethery - 07 October 2005 10:07 PM
Tripper - 07 October 2005 09:48 PM
From what I read here, nobody in this thread is actually offended by it but a few people seem to be sticking up for the rights of those who are, which is kind of close to getting offended by something on behalf of somebody else. Let those who truly are offended by this worry about it and don’t defend their views for them.
I’m assuming you’re referring to me. All I’m saying is that even where it is legal, don’t be surprised by negative reactions when it happens. I’m not trying to ban it on behalf of those people. Sheesh! I thought we were supposed to consider other people’s feelings. I’ll have to try your reasoning the next time I’m in a PC argument with ILA.
Nah, I wasn’t really getting on anybodys case, it’s just one of those things where you might ask 10,000 what they think about an issue and they all say they are ok with it but keep the regulation in case somebody else is upset by it. Then the person doing the survey could say “10,000 people support the regulation” when actually the results would show that the regulation should be gotten rid of. I’m talking more generally here, not just on this issue. We’re cool, your comments make a lot of sense.
Gee Deus, maybe you missed my post on that whole arrest issue?
Not at all, it was a response to Xetrov’s ‘Well, it’s against the law, so I must be right’. I was aware that you’d already rather undermined his point
Personally I’d rather not watch a mother breastfeeding, but that’s because I just think it’s rude to stare at people’s private moments, rather than me objecting to the sight per se. And if I was in that situation I’d just look the other way or go somewhere else and basically just get on with my life.
If the mother is prepared to get stared at, then fair play to her. But I think it speaks volumes about our society if we consider a mother performing a natural, motherly duty as wierd and stareworthy.
I think part of the problem is that too many people see breasts as purely a sexual pleasure item. I mean, yeah, they are that too (and my god are they fun), but they’re mammary glands first, funbags second. Breasts are for breastfeeding, and the fact they’re nice to play with is just a happy bonus.
I didn’t read past the first post so my apologies if I am reiterating.
I teach the mothers of kids who come to learn at my school. Many of whom have babies that they bring to class. The little darlings get hungry so the mothers do what they should. In class.
Does it bother anyone? Not a jot.
It’s kinda cute. Or is it just that I’m getting clucky at the grand age of 34?
Other people can go fuck themselves. It’s YOUR baby, so you bring it up in YOUR way (provided of course, it’s in the best interests of the child).
Have we really reached a point in our society whereby a natural, healthy process which makes us the species that we are is something to be shunned away under the carpet? If other people are uncomfortable then they can go somewhere else.
Bolded area is also a natural healthy process. Doesn’t mean it needs to be public.
Society has a right to draw lines. They’re mostly arbitrary yes, but they still have the right.
The difference being that sexual intercourse tends to be rather messier than breastfeeding.
To be brutally honest with you, I’ve got no problem with people having sex in public, should they wish to.
And society does indeed have the right to draw lines, but when those lines directly contravene what is healthiest for its members, I think people are perfectly entitled toact in defiance of those laws.
The difference being that sexual intercourse tends to be rather messier than breastfeeding.
To be brutally honest with you, I’ve got no problem with people having sex in public, should they wish to.
And society does indeed have the right to draw lines, but when those lines directly contravene what is healthiest for its members, I think people are perfectly entitled toact in defiance of those laws.
So we are dumping natural in favor of healthy? It’s just as healthy in a private place. Sex is not unhealthy BTW…
Anyway Deus, your going at this in a typically liberal way. The other side’s opinions are flawed, backward, et cetera so I’m going to power through my way with the entitlement mentality that this disrespect breads. Incivility repackaged as progressive. If people don’t want to see it how about just respecting that?
Incivility repackaged as progressive. If people don’t want to see it how about just respecting that?
I would agree with you up to a point. Holding hands in public with your girlfriend is taboo in Thailand so I didn’t do it. On the other hand, sptting in the street is fine. But I didn’t do that either. I have heard some on left wish (not you Deus) to be culturally sensitive but come unstuck when faced with draconian social rules of public behaviour (the extremist muslim world is a case in point). The problem seems to me that to define what is gratuitous indecency by cultural standards through a purely relative standpoint is bound to fail. I use the word gratuitous intentionally in its original sense- that which is unnescecearry.
Blowing ones nose in public may be taboo in Japan (by reading some guidebooks, not in my experience) but if I have a runny nose I will do it. Sex in the streets. No find a room.
Relativism (i.e. A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them) often denies logic or “common sense” , if you will.
Relativism is also a very big and handy and easy bat to beat an opponent with in a debate. So my argument is based not on a binary (right /worng) basis but like any argument worth its salt, on a context basis.
Does one need to do this action now and here?= a
will it offend those around me? =b
a>b , I do it.
So
Flip it and you get - Does this person need to do that now and here?=a My discomfort=b
a>b, go ahead
Of course one could say that the “b” quantities are relative and that would be true. However “tolerance” is just that. Those who wish to be offended (for some it is a hobby) will be. There is little to be done about that. Consensus is the key. In my class you can feed the babby. Consensus is ooften reached with a simple “Do you mind if I.....”
Breastfeeding. Necessary? For the little tike, yes. When and where? In my class - hey- no prob. At a funeral? er no.
Short skirts- yes please! At Mass- er please change.
It may seem like cpt Obvious but when you travel you can’t take anything for granted.
So we are dumping natural in favor of healthy? It’s just as healthy in a private place. Sex is not unhealthy BTW…
Not at all. I am fully aware that sex is both natural and healthy. My point is though (and I did say this) that sex tends to create far more mess than breastfeeding - you can still sit on a bench after a woman’s been breastfeeding on it. I wouldn’t like to try the same thing on a post-coital seating place.
Obviously yes, there is a time and a place for breastfeeding, but then again I wasn’t advocating breastfeeding at a funeral. I was merely advocating that should a woman choose to, she should be allowed to breastfeed in public without fear.
I’m trying to demonise the ‘opposition’ as backwards or whatever, but I really, really don’t understand the apparent phobia the sight of a breast induces. If people don’t want to see it, then surely they don’t have to look? I seem to recall similar arguments being put forward as to why a public smoking ban was a bad idea. When a woman is breastfeeding, no-one is forcing you to look, and as a side note, a small bikini will probably show just as much, given that the baby should be clamped to the nipple and thus obscuring it from view.
Obviously yes, there is a time and a place for breastfeeding, but then again I wasn’t advocating breastfeeding at a funeral. I was merely advocating that should a woman choose to, she should be allowed to breastfeed in public without fear.
Well, why not a funeral but it is okay for a restaurant or airplane?
I’m trying to demonise the ‘opposition’ as backwards or whatever, but I really, really don’t understand the apparent phobia the sight of a breast induces.
Freudian slip? Anyway, I don’t have it either… I just respect other people who might feel otherwise.
a small bikini will probably show just as much, given that the baby should be clamped to the nipple and thus obscuring it from view.
I vividly remember seeing a women in a small bikini at a grocery store once.... because it was the only time I saw someone dressed like that outside a beach… It would be out of place at a mainstream restaurant (for instance).
Well, why not a funeral but it is okay for a restaurant or airplane?
Because a funeral is a private occasion. Restaurants and airlines are entitled to their own health and safety regulations and so it is up the discretion of the airline or restaurant in question as to whether or not they permit breastfeeding. I am discussing the acceptability of breastfeeding in a public location such as a park.
I just respect other people who might feel otherwise.
That’s as maybe. Shouldn’t those people also respect the fact that the feeding and raising of a child isn’t their business? As I said, there is nothing forcing them to look at a woman breastfeeding.
I vividly remember seeing a women in a small bikini at a grocery store once.... because it was the only time I saw someone dressed like that outside a beach
And were you hideously offended by this sight? I doubt it. Granted, you would have probably regarded it as unusual, but did you go over and instruct this woman to put more clothes on? Did you stare, or point, or laugh at her for wearing a skimpy outfit?
I suspect probably not - like any other sane human being you would probably have thought ‘hmm, that’s unusual’ (hence why you remembered it) and then just got on with your life. As for the restaurant example, as I already pointed out, it’s a private business, and provided the regulations set by the restaurant do not go beyond those it is permitted to enforce by law, the restaurant is perfectly entitled to apply dress codes or prohibit breastfeeding.
I would say though that if a restaurant is permitted to prohibit breasfeeding, it should be made to provide a suitable area where a woman can breastfeed her baby.
Interesting that this is yet another piece of legislation telling women what they can or can’t do with their bodies.......ye gods.
I’m with Deus. Whoever doesn’t like it can look away, or if they feel so very offended, they can fuck off. And a woman who breastfeeds in public has to accept staring/rolling eyes, whatever. Pretty simple to me.
I think part of the problem is that too many people see breasts as purely a sexual pleasure item. I mean, yeah, they are that too (and my god are they fun), but they’re mammary glands first, funbags second. Breasts are for breastfeeding, and the fact they’re nice to play with is just a happy bonus.
And yet Teens (particularly my teen) doesn’t quite get that. That is why I’m against it being openly displayed in public. I want to raise my child with a certain set of morals (not asking you to conform to them). If you don’t like that, tough titties (;-)). It is my opinion, and I readily recognize it as such.
I have to side with the “libs” here. I don’t see the big deal. Sure, sure if it is a restaurant or airplane where close proximity or good manners dictates privacy then the woman should remove herself to a more discreet position. If possible she should do this anyway. However, I don’t understand the reaction against it. What is the immorality of a naked breast bared to feed a hungry child? Is nudity inherently sexual? Is sexuality inherently immoral in some way? If a kid asks about it simply explain it matter of factly. It is becoming increasingly scientifically proven that breastfeeding is much healthier for both mother and child. Isn’t that moral? If the best someone can manage at such a thing is to leer or sneer then it says more about them than about the mother.
If a teen doesn’t get that then it is up to the parent to instruct. That kid needs to mature. I’m not that far removed from being a teen that I can’t remember the precarious balance of hormones but I never considered anything like a mother suckling her child to be sexually stimulating.
Good point on public smoking. I can’t help but inhale your pollutant. I can always turn my head, avert my eyes, read a book, something.
I want to raise my child with a certain set of morals (not asking you to conform to them).
And that’s fair enough - after all, essentially we are arguing on the best way to raise a child according to its parents vs. society in general.
Now I’m by no means qualified to give anyone a particularly valid opinion on parenting, so the following is meant to be taken with a pinch of salt:
Even if you are trying to bring up your child with a certain set of morals, how does the sight of breastfeeding undermine this? I would have thought that had your child glimpsed a breastfeeding, and then been instructed not to stare, this would actually stand them in better stead because not only would it enable the maturity to see women as more than just sex objects, but also point out that the human body is neither dirty, nor something to be feared.
As I said though, I’m hardly a parenting authority so you may as well take that with a pinch of salt. I’ve got the utmost respect for anyone who actually makes an effort to try and teach their child a few things, instead of just expecting others to do it for them.
Good point on public smoking. I can’t help but inhale your pollutant. I can always turn my head, avert my eyes, read a book, something.
Well, that’s a slightly separate debate, which is why I use a different set of criteria for judging acceptability. Essentially I work on the principle that an activity that can damage involuntary participants should not be conducted in public. Hence why I don’t have any problems with breastfeeding in a restaurant, because no-one is potentially going to get cancer from that, but am against smoking in restaurants.
However, as I said, that’s a side debate, so the ‘public smoking’ debate, should anyone wish to continue it, should be conducted in a separate thread.
Interesting that this is yet another piece of legislation telling women what they can or can’t do with their bodies.......ye gods.
Fortunately, it seems that most of the legislation that is pending or has already been passed is pro-breastfeeding.
I personally try to be discreet as possible and in the nearly three months since I have had Cole, I have not been in a situation in which I was all out nursing in public. I generally try to schedule activities around his eating or make sure that there is a private or semi-private place that I can use to feed him.
As has been pointed out, breastfeeding is a healthy, natural way to for a mother to feed her child and for that reason, I think that there should be very little restriction regarding it. I understand that boobs are so sexualized in our culture that in certain contexts, they can be offensive to some people. I just have a hard time understanding what is offensive about a woman providing her child a meal. I’d much rather see a woman expose a little boob to feed her baby than listen to a hungry child scream.
Precisely. I’ve got far more important things to worry about than some mother getting her baps out, such as where the hell did I leave my car keys, or the new Linkin Park album, or world peace. And it’s not as if I have that many demands on my time either.
I would have thought that had your child glimpsed a breastfeeding, and then been instructed not to stare, this would actually stand them in better stead because not only would it enable the maturity to see women as more than just sex objects, but also point out that the human body is neither dirty, nor something to be feared.
And with a child (pre-teen) I would agree with you. But unfortunately today many teens are immature to the point of vulgarity. My sun has unfortunately had a few strikes against him in his young life that make it harder for him to cope with hormones than some others. So I want to do everything in my power to make certain he is protected to the best of my ability. As I said, I have no problem with a woman breast feeding, I think it is the most healthy way to feed a baby (emotionally, and physically), and I have no problem in public as long as the mother practices a little discretion.
Actually, there are public decency laws pretty much everywhere in this country preventing it, and nakedness in general. Don’t like it? Good thing you don’t live here.
You have essentially called one of the most natural acts in all of human nature indecent.
Good lord people are uptight. A woman feeding her baby is entirely natural and only those with F’d up social and religious POV would think otherwise.
And yet Teens (particularly my teen) doesn’t quite get that.
Haven’t you explained the birds and the bees to him?
I want to raise my child with a certain set of morals (not asking you to conform to them).
Actually, you ARE asking others to conform to your set of morals by not wanting to allow breastfeeding in public. You are putting your set of morals on a higher ground than their set of morals.
As I have said before, I certainly have no problem with breast-feeding in public.
On the other hand, if there were a militant mother who insisted in going out in public and breast feeding in front of people she knew would take offence to it so she could prove a point, I would recognize her right to do so but would think very little of her way of going about things.
However I’ve never seen such a woman. I’m sure one or two exist but I doubt they are worth worrying about. I’d bet that most women in this situation are like Tater. They practice some form of restraint, probably mainly because not a lot of women with new borns really want people staring at their body. I asked a friend about this today, as she is in exactly this situation with her 2 month old and she would not want a lot of people staring at her breast feeding in public. However if her kid was hungry and there were no private or semi-private places she could go to breast-feed she wouldn’t think twice about doing so in public. Bear in mind that babies have a very small stomach so need to be fed often, he can’t wait until she gets home, so while she takes into consideration other peoples feelings, the sensibilities of somebody she has never met take second place to the very real physical needs of her child.
Another thing that occurred to me today on the subject is that if I see a woman breast-feeding I look elsewhere, partly because it does nothing for me but also because I don’t want the woman in question to feel she is being stared at. However if I were caught, just glancing at the act, I’d feel a little embarrassed, and worry that the woman thought I’d been staring at her and I was some kind of perv or something. My friend says she is aware of this (wider problem, not me staring at her), and this is why she will try to be discreet when breast feeding, after all it is the polite thing to do.
Incidentally, before she was pregnant this woman had an amazing rack. While she was my friend and there was no question of me being interested in her I’d often admire the assets (while taking care not to get caught) But during the pregnancy and now she is nursing they really hold no attraction for me. I don’t mean this in a bad way, I’m sure she’ll look great again in time, and obviously this is not her concern right now. The point is that breast-feeding is in no way sexy, at least not to me.
Well, why not a funeral but it is okay for a restaurant or airplane?
Because a funeral is a private occasion. Restaurants and airlines are entitled to their own health and safety regulations and so it is up the discretion of the airline or restaurant in question as to whether or not they permit breastfeeding. I am discussing the acceptability of breastfeeding in a public location such as a park.
Actually, I think you have it totally backwards. You can do more at private occasions and should be on your best / civil behavior in public places. If none of your friends care you can do whatever in front of them....
I just respect other people who might feel otherwise.
That’s as maybe. Shouldn’t those people also respect the fact that the feeding and raising of a child isn’t their business? As I said, there is nothing forcing them to look at a woman breastfeeding.
If it is going to possibly be an issue, get a pump and fill the bottle in advance or find a private place.
I vividly remember seeing a women in a small bikini at a grocery store once.... because it was the only time I saw someone dressed like that outside a beach
