Y’know, now that I think about it, that’s a good question. Who’s “they”? If we’re talking about firefighters and police, they should have some of the best insurance on the planet through their jobs, but also incredible amounts of support through their coworkers and community. (How often do we get touching “soft news” stories of some murdered cop’s coworkers’ family and friends putting together a collection to put his kids through college or whatnot?) If you’re talking about just people that volunteered and responded… well, that’s the risk you take when you do something good. You do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because “Oh, if I get hurt, somebody better provide me medical coverage!”

And still, it’s a good question. If they weren’t getting “proper” treatment, where were you? Where was your moral outrage before Moore told you to have it? Does “they” really mean “Bush”? Is Bush being condemned because he didn’t pay for any and all medical treatment of the first responders out of his own pockets? What? I mean, seriously, I’d like to get a nailed-down definition of “they” here.

Is there some reason you didn’t take care of them? (meaning the first responders of 9/11)

I don’t understand the question. I am not a person in a position to help the first responders. I could have certainly helped them by sending them money. I never really thought it was my personal responsibility. I read that the average victim of the event, those that were actually injured in the WTC or had a loved one killed in the event -their family received an average of $1.6 million each. That being said, I simply find it rather neglectful that no one helped the first responders with their ailments. Particularly since they were paraded around by all parties of the political spectrum as heros.

This is interesting, according to a small amount of google research, I found that one this site: Emergency responders killed or injured received a total of $1.9 billion, with most of that coming from the government. Payments averaged about $1.1 million more per person than for civilians with similar economic losses, with most of the higher amount due to payments from charities.
That begin said, I wonder why Moore felt the need to help these ‘poor, neglected people’ if the average first responder from ground zero got 1.1 million MORE than the average citizen effected in ground zero?

I wonder how the treatment in Cuba for the few that Moore took compares to the treatment received by the rest of the 12,079 (FDNY) rescue workers who were tested and treated for exposure related illnesses here in the states.

Were all 12,000+ the subject of a poor quality of health care?

Were they all not covered by their FDNY health insurance?

If they weren’t covered, had they not heard of the myriad programs aimed specifically at them?

That being said, I simply find it rather neglectful that no one helped the first responders with their ailments.

Do you care to clarify that?  What do you mean that no one helped them?  No one cured them?  No one tried to help?  George Bush didn’t leap out of a helicopter suck the poison from their lungs Texas-rattlesnake-style?  What would have met a reasonable standard of “someone helped them?”

This is interesting, according to a small amount of google research,

Oh, I’m sorry.  I should have read this first.  I didn’t realize that by “no one helped them” you meant: “I don’t know anything about what sort of help they got.”

Fang, I don’t understand your hostility. I was simply making conversation. there has been much in the media about the first responders being neglected. And if Moore took some to Cuba, and got the US Treasury after him in doing so, you’d think he’d have good reason. Maybe this will be a chance for Moore to look like a boob - helping people that could afford their treatment all along?

By helping I was speaking of money, what everything boils down to. What this post began as. The owner of this site said he thinks Moore may have given him 12 thousand dollars - meaning that his family couldn’t afford treatment for an illness. Just like some of the first responders?

In regards to “suck the poison from their lung”, I didn’t think I said anything that would require any hostility, I was simply trying to contribute to the conversation.

Fang, I don’t understand your hostility.

You’re right.  Maybe there’s a little too much bite in there.  For that I apologize.  But how do you think a comment like: “No one helped them” contributes to a discussion that you clearly don’t have any background knowledge of?

By helping I was speaking of money, what everything boils down to.

Didn’t an small amount of Google research bear this out as a misconception? 

The owner of this site said he thinks Moore may have given him 12 thousand dollars - meaning that his family couldn’t afford treatment for an illness.

My brother was born with a large AV malformation in his brain.  At just a few days old doctors didn’t believe he would make it more than a few weeks.  After countless brain surgeries, and months upon months of hospitalization he not only pulled through; he was just like any other kid.  By the time my brother was 7 (and his last major surgery) my family was in over $150,000 dollars in medical debit above and beyond what was covered by our exceptional medical plan. 

We couldn’t afford it.  But my brother is still a miracle of the American health care system.  And for the record, lots of people helped us. 

Jim might not have been able to afford it, but Donna still would have gotten some of the best care in the world.  Even if Jim didn’t get 12 grand from some benefactor, I’d bet on Jim and Donna to pull through.  Jim’s a smart guy and something like that’s not about to put him and his family out on the street.

Which brings us to another question: Exactly what were these victims of Bush’s 9/11 healed of? And what proof have we they were healed? How do Cubans know so much about black lung and asbestos poisoning?
Personally I am in a position to fly to Germany and 100% legally receive free medical treatment for whatever should ail me. Does that mean I would be healed - cuz treatment was free?

I’m kind of curious if moore is going to mention the “fact” that cuba’s infant mortality rate is pretty close to the US’s.  That’ll be a good “fact” to demonstrate as the problem with comparing the US to other parts of the world.

infant mortality rate

This is such an ambiguous number.  More and more people are attempting pregnancies that are riskier and riskier in terms of infant mortality.  Advances in fertility sciences, unfortunately, mean increases in infant mortality rates. 

One number might show an appalling poverty level
The other might show an astonishing ability to get live babies out of high risk mothers.

Actually its a lot more simple than that.  The US counts almost every infant actually born in its statistics.  The includes infants born early and at rather low birthrates.  The majority of the rest of the world, as recommended by the world health organization, has a cut off point for infants born that they don’t include in their statistics.  Something like under 1500 grams or something.  Of course in the US the doctors will spend a significant amount of time and resources to help that infant live as well.

Sharlene makes a valid point when she said Moore just might come off looking like a boob when all is said and done.

As far as who is paying for this stunt—stunt likely being an apt description for Moore’s trip—there is always the possibly that this a case of one propagandist feeding off another, and vice versa.  Fidel, leader of the glorious Cuban revolution, wouldn’t dare pass up the chance to take a jab or two at our healthcare system, especially given the opportunity to showcase his system.  And Mikey certainly understands this.  It’s not difficult to formulate a conspiracy theory here given that neither of these two guys ever has anything positive to say about this country.  So, did it happen that way?  Did Mikey contact Cuban authorities to see if they wanted to provide a little free healthcare in exchange for some publicity?  I suppose we’ll soon find out.

But back to Sharlene’s point.  If one wants to speculate how this is going to come off with the public, assuming Moore is true to form, then it’s my humble opinion he has made a grave error comparing Cuba’s system with ours.  Maybe I’m under-estimating the stupidity of Moore’s fans, but I can’t fathom how even Mooreons are going to buy this one.  Comparing our system to Canada’s or the UK’s might have some merit . . . and all three systems have pros and cons . . . but Cuba?  Come on . . . only a dolt is going buy the fallacy that Cuba’s system is a sterling example of where we need to go with healthcare.

I should note here that Cuba does produce some the world’s best doctors.  Their medical schools are very good . . . as they were before Fidel’s glorious revolution.  But no country with a negative cash flow problem like Cuba’s can ever be self-sufficent when it comes to healthcare.  They must rely on other countries not only for financial support, but for a multitude of medical items necessary for a truly modern heathcare system to function properly.  While Cuba does have a medical research program, and they do produce a few drugs for diseases like Hepatitus B and such, their aging healthcare program is in dire need of reform, and Cuba is incapable of generating the cash needed for that reform.

I wonder if Mikey is going to explain why the Canadian government spent more per capita on healthcare for its citizens in 2003 ($1,886) than most Cubans make in a year.  There’s a certain reality in cash flow that’s hard to ignore, but, as usual, I suspect he’ll just blow right these facts as if they don’t exist.

I don’t believe true Thinkers will change their minds about anything: Bush masterminded 9/11, content to let everyone in Manhattan die in the rubble to support his oil wars, but then Mikey presented the Facts via Fahrenheit 9/11.
Bush and the for-profit pharma industry ignored the (mostly non-Jewish, lower-middle class, widely uninsured) survivors’ailments. Until Michael Moore stepped in to showcase both free and Cuban medicine.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Thinkers wore Che T-shirts when “Sicko” premieres - in a show of solidarity with Moore and the Facts he presents.

I could be dead wrong here, but I got the feeling that even though Moore’s last film was initially applauded by many, over time, his efforts to paint America evil have been marginalized.  I agree there’s a certain select group of disturbed minds out there who are going to believe what they need to believe, that being anything negative about this country.  At the same time, I think many others who were in Moore’s camp have come around to realizing that Mikey isn’t exactly a source of higher political thought.  Most people don’t like being duped.  It’s the old fool me once, fool me twice theme.  As people get older they get wiser.  Moore’s camp consists mostly young adults who have never experienced the necessity of thinking for themselves.  As they get older, they get more critical, or more skeptical, if you will.  He’ll always have a new crop of kids coming out of high school that he can influence, but I don’t think many of the 9/11 crowd is going to buy this Cuba crap.

Also remember that most young people in their early 20’s don’t place healthcare high on their list of priorities.  Health insurance for most of them is relatively dirt cheap.  It’s the older more skeptical crowd that will listen to both sides of any healthcare issue.  And those are the very people who just aren’t going to buy the Cuba bit.

Of course, this opinion might prove to be as lame as Moore’s films are, but for now, I have to think Moore has crossed the line with this lame stunt.

On another subject, I saw where Moore challenged Fred Thompson to a debate.  I wonder if that is what he has in mind for JimK?  :)

<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2007/05/15/the-obligatory-michael-moore-challenges-fred-to-a-debate-post/</ /link>

Fred! vs MM

At the same time, I think many others who were in Moore’s camp have come around to realizing that Mikey isn’t exactly a source of higher political thought.

I think the problem there is that a large contingent of them are still on the “Even if it was a lie, the message behind it is still true!” kick, IE that even though Moore’s films are full of lies, deceptions, and bias, they’re still “raising important issues”.

But quite frankly these are stupid people easily led anyway, so their effect on society at large is going to be relatively minor.

"Fake but accurate” is the watchword phrase of today’s online Democrat/nutroot.

I could be dead wrong here, but I got the feeling that even though Moore’s last film was initially applauded by many, over time, his efforts to paint America evil have been marginalized.

America isn’t evil. It’s silly to make such a generalization for Moore or anyone for that matter. There are many people in America, many people in America’s government. It’s not that the republicans or the demorcrats are the ‘evil’ ones either. It’s the neo conservative movement. The authors of the PNAC and the people like Wolfowitz and Pearle who studied under Leo Struass at the University of Chicago. Leo Strauss was Charles Schmidt’s protoge. Who was Charles Schmidt? He was Adolf Hitler’s attorney. The founders of the neo conservative movement don’t think that ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ is a reasonable was of governing the most powerful country on earth. They feel it needs to be dictated. People like Moore even miss the larger point with his film and his points. He misses the blatent underlying problem. That being that the neo conservative movement has highjacked the United States government (Bush is simply one of those who are asked [or forced rather] to play along, if you look at ANY of Bush’s speeches before 9/11 he was a wonderful and reasonable conservative). This is what Americans and the world including Moore seem to miss. The neo conservatives are slowly decontructing the United States Constitution, bit by bit. I’ve heard the term ‘totalitarian tip toe’ more than once - which is quite accurate really. As soon as the inevitable nuclear attack blamed on Iran comes to happen (likely before the 2008 elections) they will finish stage 2 of fully dismantling it by instating marial law. Just like the head of Spain tried to do after the train bombings.

The Neo Conserative party, NOT to be confused with Republicans at all, are the biggest evil and the biggest enemy to freedom humanity has ever seen since the days of Stalin and Hitler. Only today, those men could have only DREAMED of having the technology and the power of the United Staes behind their end goals.

if you use foil to cook, make sure you don’t go where sharlene shops.

if you use foil to cook, make sure you don’t go where sharlene shops.

Is it Reynolds Wrap or Reynold Wrap Release, the new non-stick aluminum foil that makes the best hat?

Bill Kristol is one of the authors of the PNAC.  His father, Irving Kristol, considered one of the founders of the so-called neoconservative movement, is a former member of the Fourth International, a communist organization consisting of Leon Trotsky followers.  Trotsky detested Stalin because Stalin detested democracy.  Stalin had Trotsky assasinated in Mexico.  Irving Kristol, son of an Orthodox Jewish family was a staff sergeant in the U.S. Army (Armored Infantry).  He was stationed in Europe.  Adamently opposed to both Hitler and Stalin, since neither believed in democracy, he later became a conservative, or as he put it, a liberal mugged by reality.  He later started a magazine that in the UK that was financed by the CIA.

Somehow, Bill Kristol, Fox News analysist, college professor, and son of an Orthodox Jew who fought against Hitler in Europe considered by many to be the founder of the neoconservative movement in America, is a co-author of the most diabolical scheme to come down the pike since Hitler suspended the German Constitution.

The founders of the neo conservative movement don’t think that ‘freedom’ or ‘democracy’ is a reasonable wa[y] of governing the most powerful country on earth.

Yeah, Sharlene, Irving Kristol and his band of neoconservative barbarians, including his son, Bill, lust for a totalitarian form of government in this country.

Geeeezzz . . . between Diamonds and Sharlene, you’d think Ghengis Khan just crossed the beltway into Washington

Geeeezzz . . . between Diamonds and Sharlene, you’d think Ghengis Khan just crossed the beltway into Washington

True enough, but I give credit to Sharlene for not being a jerk about it all.  Diamonds was a condescending asshole who couldn’t hold a rational conversation.

Diamonds was a condescending asshole who couldn’t hold a rational conversation.

I didn’t get the feeling Diamonds was mentally stable.

I do agree Sharlene, unlike Diamonds, presented the PNAC conspiracy theory in an acceptable, polite manner.

the biggest enemy to freedom humanity has ever seen since the days of Stalin and Hitler.

I stubbed my toe yesterday and it was the worst thing to happen since the Hindenburg crashed.

Tell me, why do people try so very hard to couch their hardships in terms of historic horrific events?  If I was the family of a Jew murdered in Germany by the Nazi movement I’d be pretty pissed off that you were making any sort of equivalence between your perceived hardships and their very real horrific history.  Do you realize how insulting that is?

Not to mention the fact that both of those guys you referenced were socialists....

And by the way, enemy to freedom?  Have you read the Quran?  Have you read any of the Sunnah or Hadith of lesser Isnad?  Have you read any of the charters of the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas?  Have you listened to the ravings of Al-Qaeda leaders or Ahmadinajad (for that matter)? 

And it’s Neocons that you label the worst enemy to freedom?

Man there’s some cognitive dissonance there that would take years of therapy to unravel.

And it’s Neocons that you label the worst enemy to freedom?

That’s right!  At this very moment those Neocon bastards are doing the totalitarian tip toe right down Pennsylvania Avenue, and Michael Moore is oblivious to the whole sordid affair.

Y’know, now that I think about it, that’s a good question. Who’s “they”? If we’re talking about firefighters and police, they should have some of the best insurance on the planet through their jobs, but also incredible amounts of support through their coworkers and community. (How often do we get touching “soft news” stories of some murdered cop’s coworkers’ family and friends putting together a collection to put his kids through college or whatnot?) If you’re talking about just people that volunteered and responded… well, that’s the risk you take when you do something good. You do it because it’s the right thing to do, not because “Oh, if I get hurt, somebody better provide me medical coverage!”

Part of my family recently returned from China, where my wife and daughter had gone for Stem Cell treatments. The local news covered us
and as the story got out, people came out of the woodwork and started throwing fund raisers for us. We were going anyway and figured we would pay for it somehow. We don’t really take advantage of all the programs out there because my wife and I both work and I am sure others need the money more than I do. We let them buy the diapers and insurance has covered most things and therapy but anytime we left the country, no.(We also saw a dr in Canada)My brother lent me all of the money for the China Trip (at no interest) and was in no hurry to get it back. I figured I could get him 5G’s a year. All the fund raisers have almost raised all the money we need to pay him back, and there may be some left over to purchase some more medical equipment for her. There has been some improvement with the SC but it is still too soon to tell. There are plenty of plans to help those in need (maybe not every single case) and we have a good system here in America. I am not sure any socialized country has a better one. For situations that don’t fit exactly into our system, it is good to have good friends. So don’t be a knob to people, and pay it forward. People just want to help.

I am glad you got help JimK, and I hope things are improving in your situation, I was wondering.

I’d scrape up 12k and donate it to some group MM wouldn’t like. Tell him that’s where his money ended up going.

That’s a problem with socialism. People think the stuff is free, buts not. Other people pay for it and it usually either frees up their own money for dumb things (clothes, booze, cigarettes, et cetera) and/or demotivates them from trying to learn some more marketable skill to earn more of their own… Again, an engineer friend in the states was a toll both ‘operator’ when he lived in a socialist country. No reason for him to better himself back then and there....

Posted by pphelps on 05/14 at 12:10 PM (Link to this comment)

I guess the error, IMO, with your argument or logic is that your assuming your class and study of the issue was, itself, bias free.

Maybe the biases Moore presents are simply the same that were present in your class and evidence / studies used and this steered your conclusions…

I don’t mean it as insult (I’m a computer guy and this is a common saying in programming)… but garbage (re: bad data) in, garbage (false conclusions) out.

Most studies and data on the issue are done by interest groups. Who fudge the data inputs to create the results they want… that we need national healthcare…

I don’t particularly care for Michael Moore.
I found this article linked from the forums for my local newspaper… figured I would check it out. And the only thing I can say is: Jim… get off your ass and get a real job. If you really care about your wife and she’s too sick to work, herself.... quit your whining and moaning and mudslinging, get out, and get a job with some benefits. So many other people do it… it can’t be THAT hard. Heck, get a job delivering the mail - those positions have GREAT benefits. Or, not… sit on your ass pecking away at your keyboard. Take donations. And know that your well-being is dependent upon the kindness of those you rip apart in your little on-line world. It’s almost poetic, now that I think about it.

I guess the error, IMO, with your argument or logic is that your assuming your class and study of the issue was, itself, bias free.

That may be the case, but the information that I am talking about is facts on what other nations cover, to what extent they cover them, and the dollar ammount they spend. I did not intend to stretch my judgement on the facts of the movie to include if universal health care is good, bad, or correct in any way. What I based my statement on was not an oppinion just the norms of other nations.