I think I understand your points…

If your opinions perfectly gel with those of America’s greatest enemies, isn’t this an indication that maybe, just maybe, there’s something seriously wrong with the values you hold?

The enemy of your enemy is your friend.  Got it!  Consider nothing else.

Now, I ask you, honestly, how is this any different from the charges we hear daily from the radical left?
...
If there’s one thing lefties hate ... What the left needs to begin asking

The word radical is meaningless.  “radical left” and “left” are interchangable.  Got it!  I guess this means it is very likely Ward Churchill will the Democratic nominee in 08? 

You know, I think you might be able to help out in JimKs previous thread.  No one else has.

There is one difference: Saddam’s repeating this stuff for a very specific reason: to save his own hide.  The radical left (and yes there is a difference between the radical left and the normal left, the line’s just getting thinner) says it because it has a deep-seated need to prove it’s so much smarter and morally superior to others.

Lee: spot on.

up4debate:  I noticed you did not refute anyting Lee said.  Ward Churchill is a wonk and asshole of great magnetude, but he is honest about what he believes… which would differentiate him from Senator Hillary Clinton.

genFX:  I noticed you did not refute anything I said. 

which would differentiate him from Senator Hillary Clinton.

And most other politicians.  But I still think, if it came down to it, and you had to vote for either Hillary, or Ward, Im thinking Hillary is getting your vote.  Thats just a guess though.  I could be wrong.

up4, why is it invalid for us to point out the similarities between what terrorists say and what ranting Leftists say? Why is it wrong of us to suggest they reevaluate their behaviors and speech because it sounds near-identical to terrorist announcements?
I don’t see you running around to places where Leftists post saying that if you in any way, shape, or form give even the slightest support to a Republican, you are a bigot of KKK-quality. After all, their reasoning is that since some Republicans are bigots, anyone that doesn’t hate all Republicans with a fiery passion must be a bigot. And this is considered, by them, utterly reasonable.
The comparison here is, at the least, somewhat apt, as it does show a clear comparison that can be judged simply by what the parties up for judgement are themselves saying. The Leftist argument is simply sweeping condemnation by association.
Which argument deserves to be decried more?

up4
But I still think, if it came down to it, and you had to vote for either Hillary, or Ward, Im thinking Hillary is getting your vote.

I bet you’re wrong:

In a CNN/USA Today/ Gallup poll made public yesterday, 51% of voters said they would definitely not vote for Mrs. Clinton if she chooses to run for president in 2008. In a separate nationwide poll conducted this month for a spirits company, Diageo, and a political newsletter, the Hotline, 44% of all voters and 19% of self-described Democrats said they viewed the New York senator unfavorably.

http://www.nysun.com/article/26432

I have to think that saddam’s lawyers are hacks, though--there’s no mention of the Bush/Cheney/Rove weather machine and how it’s been unleashed upon the poor, mostly non-white people throughout the earth.

Posted by up4debate on 01/26 at 09:56 AM (Link to this comment)

“If there’s one thing lefties hate ... What the left needs to begin askingThe word radical is meaningless.  “radical left” and “left” are interchangable.”

They are. So, maybe instead of being a dupe and defending radial lefties because you want to call yourself ‘left’ you should just use another term… liberal?

MM plays this game. Being a far left wacko socialist, he calls himself a liberal. Moderate liberals should be crying bloody murder.

Alas, there are no enemies ‘on the left’....

up4, why is it invalid for us to point out the similarities between what terrorists say and what ranting Leftists say?

Why?  Because it represents this insane idea that your enemies enemy is your friend.  Just because you support or like the same thing as a group that you really have nothing in common with, is not cause to re-think you ideals.  In short, I dont let morons tell me what to believe.  I like the Godfather movies.  Apparently so does Saddam and Kim Jong Il.  Guess what?  I still like those movies.  Well, 1 & 2 anyway.

Abolish all anti-gun laws and encourage every adult to own a weapon

The cure for crime in America is not take guns off the streets but to put more guns ON the streets. Violent criminals should be punished, but law abiding citizens should be allowed to defend their homes, business and families with out fear of the federal government treating them as the criminal.

How hard do you think it would be for me to find reasonable people on this site that agree with the above.  I dont think it would be very difficult at all.  Even though I copied it from the “Platform” section of the KKK website. 

I think it would be moronic of me, when arguing for gun control, to tell a pro-gun person that they should re-think their values because the KKK supports their idea.  I dont think JimK is a moron.  I dont think he should re-think his ideals because of what the KKK says.  He should re-think his ideals because of what I say!  :)

(I hope you realize that last part was a joke)

I bet you’re wrong:

Based on the numbers you quoted???  Show me where Hillary is losing to Ward Churchill.

They are. So, maybe instead of being a dupe and defending radial lefties because you want to call yourself ‘left’ you should just use another term… liberal?

Im still going to consider myself left of center.  Sorry man.  I like the word radical.  Used it alot as a kid.  Well, rad anyway.  Its not a meaningless word to me.

you should just use another term… liberal?

Besides, if i call myself a liberal, isnt Karl Rove just going to say that I want to give therapy to terrorists, and that I want US troops to die? 

So, cant say Im on the left, cant say im a liberal.  Hhhmmm.  Now I see what your strategy is!!!  The only safe words are “right” and “conservative”!  You are a snkeaky bunch.

OT, but here is the latest diatribe from Cindy Sheehan.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=592

Yeah, I know what some of you are thinking.  “It’s not michael Moore.  She doesn’t need attention.”

But I think, IMO, that this site should also comment on articles and such on Moore’s site, even if he hasn’t read them, because it shows what he believes as well and exposes him big time.

Also, notice on his site today something regarding Iran and Nukes.  Something tells me he’s actually for them aquiring nuclear material.  No big suprise, really.

The word radical is meaningless.  “radical left” and “left” are interchangable.  Got it!

All sarcasm aside, this difference is become increasingly less obvious.
Just look at the heights Howard Dean has reached in the party. That says a lot, right there.
Or you can just look in the VIP booth of at the next, or previous DNC Primary conventions.

You have to admit, the line between “left” and “barking moonbat left” is not what it used to be.

I guess this means it is very likely Ward Churchill will the Democratic nominee in 08?

I’m not going to claim that this idea isn’t silly.
I will, however, tell you it’s not nearly as rediculous an idea as it used to be.
If it did somehow happen, I would react so much differently today than I would have, say, ten years ago.
If I’d heard that announcement then, I would have bled from my eyes in incredulous disbelief and horror.
If I’d heard that same news today, I would heave a hearty sigh and shake my head in disappointment.

Is the my desensitivity to insane ideas like that my own fault?
No, sorry… it’s the result of a decade of moved goalposts, lowered standards and greater acceptance of pure idiocy and absurdity… an almost daily barrage of a syndrome almost wholly perpetuated by the left in this country.

I think what pisses me off most is, I’ve adapted to it.
Like an ex-nun who now works as aboom opertor on a porn set, I’ve come to expect those things that once shocked and horrified me.

And that is really scary.

Posted by up4debate on 01/26 at 01:46 PM (Link to this comment)

“Besides, if i call myself a liberal, isnt Karl Rove just going to say that I want to give therapy to terrorists, and that I want US troops to die?”

A: he is a partisan spin master.
B: by not distancing yourself from leftists, you play into his hands. If you made more effort to distance liberal from ‘left’ it would be easier to tell people he was full of sh*t.

“The only safe words are “right” and “conservative”!  You are a snkeaky bunch.”

Nope… I’m all for telling US conservatives they shouldn’t use the term ‘right’ to describe themselves. The ‘right’ in a (Euro context… and since they created the terms, their definition trumps ours IMO) is as icky a group as the left.

How hard do you think it would be for me to find reasonable people on this site that agree with the above.  I dont think it would be very difficult at all.  Even though I copied it from the “Platform” section of the KKK website.

I think it would be moronic of me, when arguing for gun control, to tell a pro-gun person that they should re-think their values because the KKK supports their idea.  I dont think JimK is a moron.  I dont think he should re-think his ideals because of what the KKK says.  He should re-think his ideals because of what I say! 

This is a total straw man argument.  It’s bullshit.

I think it’s fair to assume that both OBL and Saddam have a pathological hatred of America.  I also think that many people on the left share this pathological hatred, though they will deny it until their last breath.  (MM is a perfect example.) However, when you have OBL regurgitating MoveOn’s talking points and recommending that Americans read a book written by some major left-wing Howard Zinn-style asshat, and you’ve got Saddam filing a lawsuit using THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT that the lefties have been using for years, it’s quite hard to dodge the issue of shared values.

See, I claim that MM hates America.  In support of my claim I point out all the statements he has made in the past.  He denies that he hates America, calling himself a patriot engaging in dissent.  I then point out that the world’s most wanted terrorist and the former dictator of Iraq both hold views that are identical to his.  This means that either MM hates America as I originally thought, or OBL and Saddam are patriots engaging in dissent.  You can’t have it both ways.

Your quote from the KKK website is a total straw man because support of gun rights has nothing to do with what the KKK is known for, racism.  By saying, “See, you believe in something the KKK believes in, therefore you are a racist” you’re engaging in a total non-sequitir.  A much better example would be a Republican politician claiming that he is not a racist.  You then go to the KKK website and find statements virtually identical to the statements made by the politician.  The politician then has to explain how he is not a racist while espousing identical views to a radical racist organization. 

In exactly the same way, it is now incumbent on the left’s talking heads to explain how they can have a deep love of America while espousing views identical to two of the biggest America-haters on the planet.

What you have engaged in here is a logical fallacy called “reductio at Hitlerum” Basically what it means is that if person A holds viewpoint B, and Hitler also held viewpoint B, you thereby impeach the view of person A, no matter how immaterial to the argument viewpoint B happened to be.  For example, Hitler believed in the highway system.  If you were to say that because I also believe in the highway system I am like Hitler, you would be engaging in reductio ad Hitlerum.  Similarly, if I were to claim that MM hates America because both Castro and he share a love of free health care, that would be a preposterous argument.

What is salient here is that the CENTRAL ARGUMENTS of both the terrorists and the left-wing radicals are identical.  You cannot hold racial views similar to the Klan and claim not to be a racist, and you likewise cannot hold opinions of America identical to a terrorist and still claim to love this country.

It’s impossible.

I think it’s fair to assume that both OBL and Saddam have a pathological hatred of America.  I also think that many people on the left share this pathological hatred, though they will deny it until their last breath.  (MM is a perfect example.)

I think this is the main point of your argument, correct me if I am wrong.  Basically, this idea justifies what you are saying. 

And I think we just have to agree to disagree on this point.  I dont think “many” on the left in America hate America.  They may disagree with the current admin, but they dont actually HATE America like Saddam and OBL do.  I dont even think MM hates America.  I think he talks alot of bullshit in foreign countries in order to sell his product, but I dont think he hates America.  My countrys current Prime Minister-elect Stephan Harper, while in America, called Canada (paraphrasing) a “Nothern European Socialist Welfare State of the worst kind”.  I think he was just mouthing off to the crowd in front of him.  I dont think he HATES Canada.  Maybe I just see hate as a very strong word.  I would agree that Saddam and OBL HATE America. 

There is a huge difference between what the left wants for America, and what OBL wants.  If you were to picture the America that the left wants, it would probably be something like, less war, more diplomacy, more social spending, a balanced budget (Im not trying to argue for or against these issues here).  Do you think that is what OBL wants?  I dont think its anything close!  I think OBLs America would more closely resemble northern Pakistan, or the former Aphghanistan.  No?  Do you really think that is what the left wants? 

In exactly the same way, it is now incumbent on the left’s talking heads to explain how they can have a deep love of America while espousing views identical to two of the biggest America-haters on the planet.

This is going to be another thing we are just going to disagree on.  I dont think it is incumbent on the left to explain it. 

I may say I disagree with the war in Iraq.  I may even question Halliburton contracts.  If someone is going to twist that into me being in the same boat as Saddam and fucking OBL ... well, no explanation is going to get through their skull.  All of a sudden they forget that Saddam was a dictator, they forget about the rape rooms they have been talking about, they forget about what he did to the Kurds, and just reduce him down to “someone who hates America just like you!”.  Well done.  They seemingly forget what OBL is all about, and what his actions are that represent who he is.  Its just reduced to “he hates America, just like anyone who didnt vote for Bush!”.  Come on man, its ridiculous.  Saddam and OBL are monsters.  Do you really think, even someone as far left as Howard Dean, should even be mentioned in the same breath as OBL when it comes to enemies of America?  I just cant imagine you wanting 5 minutes alone in a room with Howard Dean as badly as I would like 5 minutes alone in a room with OBL.  Its impossible.

I love how the liberals act as if the word liberal is this big cross they have to bear.  I mean, it’s a very flattering word, which implies openmindedness and tolerance (qualities and values the leftists don’t always have, but always see themselves as having).  I just love this “woe is me” crud.

Besides, if i call myself a liberal, isnt Karl Rove just going to say that I want to give therapy to terrorists, and that I want US troops to die? 

No, if you call the President excessively negative things (like “incompetant” and “a liar") over and over again, just out of partisan divisiveness, then we’ll simply remind you that it’d be nice if once in a while, people like you put aside your hatred of all those right of center once in a while so it doesn’t pop up in an al Quieda training video.

So, cant say Im on the left, cant say im a liberal.  Hhhmmm.  Now I see what your strategy is!!!  The only safe words are “right” and “conservative”!  You are a snkeaky bunch.

See, in his world, Up4 doesn’t see anyone casting aspersions on right wingers.  It’s not like racism is defined as “far right.” It’s not that “conservative” is a synonym for “narrow mindedness” or stubbornness.  It’s not like there are people like Al Franken who write books with the implicit (or hell even explicit) message everyone on the right is a corrupt, racist liar.

Look, pal, if you leftists don’t want the word liberal, we’ll take it.

And just for the record, yes, I would pick Hillary over Ward Churchill.  I’d like to know what your point is in bringing it up.

Anyway, once again, a know-it-all has taken us off topic.  Let’s get back on track.  Saddam’s people are takng this “well, the US committed crimes against humanity.” That’s simply similar to the leftists’ constant charge, “hey!  This country committed crimes.”

If up4debate really wants to show us what a patriot he is, why doesn’t he tell us what he really thinks of Saddam’s charge.  Does he think that we’re (or at-least Bush and Blair) guilty of crimes like Saddam’s people?  Why or why not?  Even if we did, would that be reason enough to let Saddam off?  Why or why not?

That’s your homework, up4.  Don’t come back until you’re finished!

Bush and Blair were also accused of polluting Iraq’s air, waters and environment

This coming from the same douche bag who ordered his men to set fire to oil wells all around his own country?
The longer this motherfucker is alive, the more I just want to beat him to death!

You guys think this is bad, what the normal liberal crap and a few wacko’s spew?  Try listening to the rants of needy youth who have been brainwashed by their uneducated and often outspoken parents and relatives.  I get these kids when they are old enough to start believing every single conspiracy theory that the ghetto can produce.  I hear the craziest stuff teaching but today topped it so I thought I would share. Thankfully it applies so I can post it.

I had a student swear to me that we are putting Saddam on trial for absolutely nothing.  His conspiracy included things like “G.W. Bush just wants oil so he can stay president forever.” After explaining that the presidency has term limits and what that meant the student said it didn’t matter because G.W. can do whatever he wants “cause he doesn’t count the black’s votes.” He tried to use Florida as an example but it wasn’t going good for him so he turned to a sure shot.  “Bush doesn’t count black’s votes, then when he has to he has them all killed before they can vote again.” (Yes the reference to Katrina about broke my jaw it hit the floor so hard).

Now, why do I bring this up?  Because this crazy, moonbat left nonsense that MM, Saddam, and company keeps spouting is what fills the head of the poor.  Please, up4, when you say the

The enemy of your enemy is your friend.  Got it!  Consider nothing else.

realize that there are plenty of people who do just that.  They see black and white.  They hear this nonsense and go directly to that enemy of my enemy crap.

So, yes, nuance all you want.  You’re not a liberal, you’re a radical.  I understand.  However, when Saddam says this crap about polluting Iraq’s environment people associate it with how Moore showed Iraq previous to liberation and people believe it.

Hope you keep them in mind when you say

Do you really think, even someone as far left as Howard Dean, should even be mentioned in the same breath as OBL when it comes to enemies of America?

Because it’s Dean and his counterparts on the left and right that keep up these conspiracy theories.

I don’t think the left would vote much for Churchill, but then again, one of the left’s favorite “oppressed” people has just elected a terror organisation in Palestine…

And the left is assuring us it’s ok because it was a free and democratic election… if you believe putting in power a governement that swears it will destroy the democracy next door is democratic…

The left is taking the side of Palestine and Hamas - not Israel’s.

Do they take the side of terrorists or America?

Well..when OBL and Saddam are using against America - almost word for word - what they hear and read from the American left...I think we have a serious problem with the left.

Terrorists repeat what the left is saying and the left is repeating what terrorits are saying.
they feed each other.
they support each other.
they may not physically fight along side each other with weapons, but they are still allies against america.

Some of you will say those are strong words,
No, they are not, they are just the politically incorrect truth; the left is helping the ennemy.

And I’ll say it again; the left is helping the ennemy.

Suicide Bombers ( I hate that term, but I don’t want to confuse lefties ) find inspiration/motivation to kill innocents from two source;

1- the Koran

2- the MSM. ( Mostly the American MSM, The British,Canadian, Frenchand German MSM are for the most part repeating what the American left is saying )

realize that there are plenty of people who do just that.

And I am saying that is wrong. 

You’re not a liberal, you’re a radical.  I understand.

Are you serious, or was that a joke?

Because it’s Dean and his counterparts on the left and right that keep up these conspiracy theories.

Sorry man, you are never going to convince me that Howard Dean should be thought of in the same light, or compared to, or equated with OBL.  Even MM, as much as you guys hate him, in the same boat as OBL.  Wow!

And I think we just have to agree to disagree on this point.  I dont think “many” on the left in America hate America.  They may disagree with the current admin, but they dont actually HATE America like Saddam and OBL do.  I dont even think MM hates America.

If you are talking about America as a land mass, I agree.  But America as an ideal, well, the left absolutely hates it.  You cannot disagree with everything a country was built and founded on and still claim to love it.  It’s completely absurd.
If I say I love pizza but then go on to say I hate tomatoe sauce, I hate the cheese, and I’m not a fan of crust, you are going to call bullshit on me, as well you should.  It’s the same with leftists nowadays.
You cannot say you love America but hate free enterprise, hate personal responsibility, hate a strict interpretation of the constitution, and hate the idea of a smaller government; despising everything a country has stood for for 225 years is usually NOT indicative of a LOVE for that country.

If you are talking about America as a land mass, I agree.  But America as an ideal, well, the left absolutely hates it. 

Just to clear things up a bit, but when you say people on the left hate America ... what % of your population are we talking about here?

But America as an ideal, well, the left absolutely hates it.

Really?  That ideal, I assume, being the attack of countries that are not a threat to us? The killing of civilians? Torture? Spying on your countrymen? Internment camps?  Who in their right mind would support any of that?  Do you?

Can you please lay out your ideals of America and then show me what the left hates about those?

And, btw, as for “hating America”:  You guys certainly hate the liberals.  That is about 50% of the population of this country.  How can you claim to love America, when you hate 50% of the people living in it, and hate the ideals of 50% of the country?

If Al Qaeda members had a free election in which they had to vote on who will be the next 19 guys that will crash airplanes in major American cities,

would any one be celebrating the fact that Al Qaeda is acting in a democratic way?

Yes, people on the left would.

The fact that Hamas was chosen in a free election means shit.

Palestinians still want to kill Jews - I guess they just want to do it in a more “democratic” way.

...

And where are the “Mahmoud Ahmadinejad = Hitler” T-shirts?

Didn’t he just say the Holocaust did not happen?

Didn’t he just say he wants to wipe Israel and Jews off the map?

Iran wants to destroy Israel with nuclear bombs (eventually) and Palestine is officially a terrorist nation .

But where are the peace activists with their protest signs?

I think I know,

they are busy hating America…

would any one be celebrating the fact that Al Qaeda is acting in a democratic way?

Yes, people on the left would.

So there is no misunderstanding, who do you mean when you say the ‘left’?

Spying on your countrymen?

exnavy, you probably don’t know that, during the Clinton administration a similar “spying “ program was in place, it was called “echelon”, but back then the New York Times approved of it.

When Carter was in power, he also approved similar methods of “spying”.

I am not making this up.

it’s out there, you can google it.

But look at how hypocritical the left are about this kind of stuff.  If a Republican/Conservative says something that offends them, the leftie lemmings demand apologies, terminations and resignations.
If a leftie says something offensive or, per usual, stupid and anyone says anything challenging, then you are trying to oppress the free thinking progressives and are a fascist.
Consider the latest in the train wreck that is Al Sharpton.  Comedy Central aired an episode of “The Boondocks” the day before Martin Luther King Jr. Day that featured MLK coming out of a coma and being appalled at what the African Americans in this country have done to themselves.  The cartoon featured a scene in which MLK uses the word “nigger”.  Al Sharpton jumped on that and of course called a press conference and stated that Comedy Central should be ashamed of themselves and shouldn’t have aired the cartoon.
But here’s the catch; the cartoon “The Boondocks” is based on the Sunday Comic strip of the same name.  Both are created and developed by, <gasp> an African American!!!
But you don’t hear Al Sharpton saying anything about the artist!  No, he aims his rage at Comedy Central.  And what do you think would have happened if Comedy Central had decided not to air that edpisode?  Al Sharpton would have called a press conference and called them “racists” and accused them of oppressing a young black artist.

during the Clinton administration a similar “spying “ program was in place, it was called “echelon”,

Well, Clintons was technically legal.  Loopholes and all.  But it was still wrong. 

Wrong when Clinton did it, wrong that Bush is doing it.  Agree trapped?

Who do I mean?

Most people on the left such as;

bloggers and the hundreds of people from the USA, Canada, England, Australia, France ( or the province of quebec) who comment on the dozens of blogs I visit (I speak both english and french and I have the time; I only work 2 or 3 hours a day )

the MSM from USA ( ABC,CBS,NBC,CNN...) Canada ( CBC,CTV, Global, Radio-Canada, télé-quebec,TVA,TQS) France ( TV5), England ( BBC )…

University professors from the USA, Canada, France, that are invited on tv shows to give their opinions,

News paper online ( American, Canadian, French, British...)

Magazines like Newsweek that made up stories about flushed Korans which resulted in dead people,

Politicians from the countries above, didn’t you see the Canada liberal party ads? Didn’t you listen to what Paul Martin said? Don’t you know British, French and German politicians play the anti-american card to get more votes?

Democrats like Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and so on,

People like Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan,

Hollywood stars like Cameron Diaz who said voting for Bush was voting for rape.

the United nations,

organisations like the ACLU or Amnesty international,

and so on, and so on…

Oh yeah and...my friends, family members, and people I do business with;
most of them are anti-americans - I only personaly know 4 people that are pro-america - and a few of those anti-americans close to me have even said about 9/11;
“ the USA got what it deserved “

There might be a few execptions here and there, but most people on the left from laymen to intellectuals all agree; the USA is the cause of everything bad in this world.

And most people on the left are either ignoring or making excuses for nations that are doing far worst things than the USA.

To deny that most on the left are anti-americans would be like denying that most people in North America eat too much and are overweight.

So would you say about 50% of the population of North America is on the left?  Im just using round numbers here.  If not, what would your number be?

And how do you only work 2-3 hours a day???  Where can i get a gig like that!

Exnavy, by now, Moorewatchers are definitely used to your rhetoric, and I’m sure sooner or later one of them is going to call you on your bullshit and demand you actually cite some sources for your drivel, at which point, they will quickly shoot down all your sources as either biased to the point of absurdity, or just plain wrong.  So why don’t we just cut to the chase, acknowledge you most likely do not know what the hell you are talking about, and move on to some real issues, mmmkay?

As to what proportion of NA is on the left would it be helpful if we all agreed that we are really talking just Canada and the US here?

I think a more salient issue isn’t just the big round numbers under each tent (left/right) but how those populations are skewed. For those on the left there certainly seems to be a more vocal (and more accepted) drift towards the blind rejection of values that have founded both of our countries.

Does this mean that they hate the US? It certainly creates that appearance.

Wrong when Clinton did it, wrong that Bush is doing it.  Agree trapped?

If - and only IF - they were both wrong, then why is the left treating Clinton’s “spying” differently from Bush’s?

Could it be that their hate of Bush and of the right in general is so deep that they are willing to do almost anything to hurt the Bush administration?

Back when Clinton did it,
no one believed that a serious terror attack could happen in the USA, 9/11 had not happened yet,
and the USA was not fighting in two terrorist infested countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.
so “spying” was not all that much justified, but it was not a bad idea.

Things have changed quite a lot since then.

Maybe Clinton was not wrong, but Bush is even less wrong.

The MSM is wrong to blame Bush for the same thing Clinton did, when it is obviously necessary - now that 9/11 has happened - to do it for the safety of the American people.

If - and only IF - they were both wrong, then why is the left treating Clinton’s “spying” differently from Bush’s?

Well, put aside party leanings for a second, and realize we are talking about what Clinton did, versus what Bush is doing.  You cant really expect them both to get the same attention can you.

Maybe Clinton was not wrong, but Bush is even less wrong.

And yet, you expect a reasonable response from the other side.

Exnavy, by now, Moorewatchers are definitely used to your rhetoric, and I’m sure sooner or later one of them is going to call you on your bullshit and demand you actually cite some sources for your drivel, at which point, they will quickly shoot down…

What??!??

This is what I said:

“And, btw, as for “hating America”:  You guys certainly hate the liberals.  That is about 50% of the population of this country.  How can you claim to love America, when you hate 50% of the people living in it, and hate the ideals of 50% of the country?”

What kind of sources do you need for that? The last election results? And what are you going to “shoot down”?

acknowledge you most likely do not know what the hell you are talking about

In regards to hating America?

and move on to some real issues, mmmkay?

You mean, “The Liberals hate America” is not a real issue? Sure, agreed. Let’s move on to some real issues.

Does this mean that they hate the US? It certainly creates that appearance.

So again, what % of the population are we talking about?  Im just trying to get an idea of what you mean.  Are you (all) talking about the fringe 1-5%?  And calling that the left?  More?  Certainly not the 50% that didnt vote for Bush.  Right?

up4-

Actually, no.  When Clinton did a lot of the spying, it was PURELY domestic.  (Especially after the Oklahoma City Bombing).  Anything Clinton did that involved communications with known terrorists outside of the US, I’d say, like what’s going on now, was not wrong.  Nor was it/is it illegal. 

And liberals don’t hate America - they hate what makes it America.  (And, by they, I am talking of a generalization - with the express acknowledgement that not all liberals are the same).  However, the most powerful thread in the most vocal liberal groups is that the concept of republicanism/federalism (the founding political principle of this nation) and the concept of external morality (a concept considered key to the success of the “experiment” of the US by the Founding Fathers, even the deists) need to be done away with. 

External morality, to the liberal under discussion, is completely unacceptable and merely the vestige of “patriarchal” and “oppressive religious” influences.  Thus, like socialists/communists/fascists/Nazis, the power of human will, scientifically applied, and create a utopia on earth.  Which is why liberals believe in the power of the state to fix problems whilst conservatives (real conservatives, not necessarily Republicans) believe in the individual.  (Which, again, is why the Founding Fathers to heavily relied on the continuance of the belief in external morality as a necessary principle in the success of the US).

As such, liberals do “hate the US,” insofar as they hate the existant political structure’s remaining connections to its Constitutional foundations.  This is why the Constitution needs to be “reinterpreted” according to “modern principles.” (Which, of course, makes the Constitution meaningless and nothing more than an obstacle to be overcome in the furtheranc of personal political/sociological goals).

Thus, a stronger national government is necessary - at the expense of local and state governments.  The federalism envisioned by the Founding Fathers, which would have allowed each state greater latitude in shaping their laws according the wishes of each state’s residents is anethema to the modern liberal.  If a neighboring state has a law the liberal doesn’t like, that state shouldn’t be allowed to have it.  Therefore the liberal will run to the national governmental body (or the SCOTUS) to force the neighboring state into conformity with the liberal’s state’s outlook.  This is contrary to the Founding Fathers’ vision, the Constitution, and what conservatives (again, not necessarily Republicans) believe.

So, liberals have, over the last several decades, done everything to change the US from what it was into what they want - something that more closely resembles a state they want, a state that allows for an elite to direct the lives of the people for their own good.  (Hence we have Hillary Clinton talking about the necessity of the government taking more money from people for their own good, or the idea of “it takes a village” (a frighteningly similar concept to socialist/communist/fascist/Nazi belief in the elimination of the family unit as a cornerstone of society)).

This is contrary to what the US was founded on.  So, yes, in a sense, liberals do hate America.  And anything they can so or do to undermine what they see as American (particularly conservatism/Christianity) is to be attacked, villified, and eliminated.  Hence 60 years of horrible decisions from the SCOTUS and new laws of increased federal control in an attempt to reshape the US in the liberal image.  Now that there is resistence to this trend, liberals (especially on campuses) have simply grown more vocal.

All I can say is there is a lot of anti-americans out there, a lot…

A national survey found that Democratic professors outnumber Republican professors 3 to 1 in economics, 28 to 1 in sociology, and 30 to 1 in anthropology

And if there is a bunch that really hates America it’s university professors… Ward Churchil, Noam Chomsky ring any bells?

how about this guy?

Providing new evidence of the academic Left’s hardened anti-Americanism and sympathy for jihad terror, Khalil Shikaki has been appointed a senior fellow at Brandeis University’s Crown Center for Middle East Studies.

On February 24, 1998, terrorism expert Steven Emerson testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee that Shikaki ferried “information, messages and even operational materials to his brother Fathi in Damascus, head of Islamic Jihad.”

...

And the Frasier institue in Canada found that close to 80% of employees at CBC ( Canadian Broadcasting Company - which is state funded ,which means part of my paycheck and yours up4 pay for it even if we don’t like it) are liberals…

Anyone who has watched CBC knows how anti-american they are.

It’s raining anti-American liberals!

Are you (all) talking about the fringe 1-5%?  And calling that the left?

Personally, I do think the 1-5% fringe hate America, but I also feel that many more may not truly hate America, but resent it or have a double standard where what may not be okay to say about one country is okay to say about America.

And it’s from that “Blame America First” crowd that people like Saddam (and more often Osama) get a lot of talking points.

And as I said before, I don’t believe for a second that Saddam cares about any civilian casualties in the war or that he gives one about pollution.  He’s just trying to save his own hide.  It’s just that I hear the same thing from people who aren’t charged with crimes against humanity.

Really?  That ideal, I assume, being the attack of countries that are not a threat to us? The killing of civilians? Torture? Spying on your countrymen? Internment camps?  Who in their right mind would support any of that?  Do you?

Thank you for proving my point, exnavy.  You completely ignored the part of your post where you make wild accusations without any basis in reality, and instead focus on a completely different bs argument.  Continue if you wish, but you’ve definitely shown yourself to not be worth any more time.

And I think we just have to agree to disagree on this point.  I dont think “many” on the left in America hate America.  They may disagree with the current admin, but they dont actually HATE America like Saddam and OBL do.  I dont even think MM hates America.

I could not disagree more.  These same people have ALWAYS found a reason to hate “what is happening.” It doesn’t matter who the President is.  They just turn their hatred toward something else.

They NEVER, EVER have a period of time where America is good or right.  Look at the disdain that both coasts have for “middle America.” It borders on the hate old racists had for black people.  These are the bastions of “liberalism” in America, both coasts full of people who would not shed a tear of terrorists blew up four, five, even six states in the Midwest.

America represents all that is wrong with social, fiscal and miliatry policy to these people.  They pay lip service to loving their country...they don’t.  They never have.  They want to change everything about it.  Hence the term “progesssive.”

Do we need changes?  Yes.  Do we need changes in the basic fabric of the nation?  Not so much.

As to the topic of this post, away from which my comments have wandered slightly, there is a difference between two groups supporting a policy position (i.e. the gun thing you raised) and two groups ESPOUSING PHILOSOPHY.  You know that, Up4.  One is two groups, vastly divergent, agreeing that the way to practically accomplish a goal is the same.  The other speaks to core beliefs, the very makeup of who and what they are.

Radical Muslim terrorists hold similar philosophy to the mebers of the American left who are, shall we say, to the left of moderate.

Radical Muslim terrorists hold similar philosophy to the mebers of the American left who are, shall we say, to the left of moderate.

Im not going to disagree with you that you could find morons on the left (think Berkley) who fit your desription perfectly.  Just as I could describe the right as a bunch of religous fanatics who want to see America transformed into a Christian state.  Is that true?  No, but I am sure that I could find many right of center who fit that description perfectly.  But when statements are made like “the left hates America”, or “the left has the same ideals as terrorists”, you paint with too wide a brush.  Its not a fair statement.  It sounds way too much like President Bushs “youre either with us, or youre against us” (and even I know that is not what he meant, despite what some may think).  It doesnt do anyone any good to paint half the country as terrorist sympathizers.  It simply isnt true. 

The other speaks to core beliefs, the very makeup of who and what they are.

If I understand you correctly, I disagree.  Like I said earlier, what terrorists want for America, and what the left wants for America is very very different.  Their core beliefs are very different.  Do you think Bin Laden and Howard Dean are even close in what they want for America? 

The way it appears to me anyway, is that Bin Laden and Saddam are using rhetoric from the far left as a tool in their propoganda to make their arguements appear legitimate.  The end result they want is very different from the far left, but these talking points do further their cause.  Much the same way as the KKK might spout talking point from the NRA when it comes to gun laws, to make their case sound legitimate, because the NRA is alot more mainstream than they are.  The end result they want though is very very different. 

If anyone really thinks half your population, or even the citizens of the coasts hate America, and their ideals and philosophies are on par with Islamic terrorists ... youre country is in real trouble. 

And yes, I do take this personally.  I consider myself left of center.  And when someone says that puts me in the same boat as the people behind 9/11 ... what do you say to that?

But when statements are made like “the left hates America”, or “the left has the same ideals as terrorists”, you paint with too wide a brush.  Its not a fair statement.

Well when it is the leadership, and those that say they represent the will and ideals for them, it is a fair statement.  And no matter how thin of a brush you get you’re gonna get red on your face.  Maybe not you specifically up4, but those people in the US who have Howard Dean speaking for them and let Michael Moore have the seat of honor.

Well when it is the leadership, and those that say they represent the will and ideals for them, it is a fair statement.

Well, by that logic then, I think its fair to say the right are a bunch of religous fanatics.  I dont buy the logic though.

Fuck the left!

Religious fanatics?  Are you making the mistake of calling Pat Robertson’s idiocy equivalent to that of Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi, Schumer, Reid or Dean?  I stopped at 6...I could list the top 30 Democrats currently holding power in the party proper and each and every one of them has either agreed with or personally espoused a position that is, in point of fact, anti-American on some level. 

They do not love this country.  They love what they want to make this country into.  There is a vast gulf between the two.  Some of them actively hate what this country actually is.

The end result they want though is very very different.

You miss the point.  The end result they both want is radical change.  The specifics of the end result each group wants may differ...or rather, they *do* differ.  However, their feelings about this country as it stands right now do not.

Therein lies the problem.  Not only are they in lock-step philosophically with murderers and terrorists, but they’re stupid enough to thnk the terrorists give a shit about red vs. blue, left vs. right, Republican vs. Democrat.

I don’t want naive, stupid people in charge of my safety and my country.  I’d rather have greedy, corrupt assholes who like to kick the asses of those that need kicking.  At least I know they;re looking out for some fucking thing and not ready to sell me down the river in the name of some unreachable goal of utopian peace on earth.

People fight.  They always will.  I’d rather have the greedy assholes fighting back than the naive idiots rolling over.

up4 - you want to konw who “the left” is?  The left is:
- communist organizations working within America to deconstruct our current system and turn it into a socialist nation.  These are the ones you’ll find at all these rallies and marches and whatever else you can throw behind hapless victims like Sheehan.
- idiots with an intellectual superiority complex who set up blogs and independent news syndications ranting about the industrial-military complex and how conservatives want to annihilate the planet and hate everybody and have super-secret-handshake societies that “take out” any dissension from inside or out.  As such they are aligning themselves more and more with the first group.
- a Democratic political party that is furious that the government is no longer their personal sandbox for all their pet social programs, and thus are aligning themselves more and more with the previous groups.
- a mainstream media that breathlessly reports these rants as if they were news elements, and then boost their ratings by making 80% of their content an editorial shouting match between pundits for whom I personally have very little patience or tolerance.
- a public that finds itself duped by these groups for various reasons: 1). they are culturally Democrat voters (Catholics, Jews, blacks, union workers, they remember Camelot and the Kennedys, etc), 2). class-warfare arguments suggesting conservatives hate everyone who’s not a rich white male, 3). broad-based emotional arguments that appeal to idealism, e.g., the party of clean water and equal rights, 4). hypocritical charges of unethical/illegal conduct (war for oil, spying on your phone calls, burning the Constitution), etc etc

Now ideally, the people would be the ones with the power and influence in policy decisions, which would trickle down to the party, so these groups would be in order from last backwards to first, with the party listening to the people, the media removed from the equation and just reporting straight news, and the commie bastards shipped back to North Korea and China and out of our domestic political process.  Instead, all the groups are in this equation, and the ideology and influence trickle from the top down in the order I listed.  Not all Democrats are moonbats, but the moonbats have taken control of the left.  This is evidenced in the rise of Screamin’ Dean to the head of the party, Kerry and Gore going on Hulkish rampages in speeches, senators voting on party lines against a highly-qualified judicial candidate universally approved by everyoen he’s ever worked with, Senator Clinton pandering for 2008 votes even though she has voted FOR this war because she KNOWS from her time as president that it’s the right thing to do, the list goes on.

Do 50% of Americans hate America?  No.  But they are being driven by propaganda from those who do, in order to elect like-minded officials.  It may seem sensible to you that I listed those groupings from the most radical and dangerous to the most honest and normal, but it should similarly disturb you to take note that that list also outlines the flow of policy influence in the Democratic base.