Hate Mail, Dutch Style
From the Netherlands.
From: jvandekoolwijk@home.n
Subj: Sickoi just saw sicko. that part about your website made me laugh. i experienced your failing heath care system first hand on one of my trips. i’m glad to live in a country that has thing organised..
Yeah, your organizational skills are the envy of the world.
Mohammed Bouyeri assassinated van Gogh in the early morning of Tuesday November 2, 2004, in Amsterdam, in front of the Amsterdam East borough office (stadsdeelkantoor) on the corner of the Linnaeusstraat and Tweede Oosterparkstraat, while he was bicycling to work. He shot him eight times with an HS 2000 (a handgun produced in 2000 in Croatia), and Van Gogh died on the spot. Bouyeri then cut van Gogh’s throat, nearly decapitating him, and stabbed him in the chest. Two knives were left implanted in his torso, one attaching a five-page note to his body. The note (Text) threatened Western governments, Jews and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who went into hiding). The note also contained references to the ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra.
The killer, Mohammed Bouyeri, a 26-year-old Dutch citizen, was apprehended by the police after being shot in the leg. Although born in Amsterdam, well-educated and apparently well-integrated, Bouyeri has alleged terrorist ties with the Dutch Hofstad Network. He was also charged with the attempted murder of a police officer and bystander, illegal possession of a firearm, and conspiring to assassinate others, including Hirsi Ali. He was convicted on July 26, 2005 and sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole.
Was this an isolated incident, or the result of Dutch organization?
After the murder of Theo van Gogh in november 2004, Minister of Integration and Immigration Rita Verdonk commissioned an inquiry into the radicalisation of young Muslims. The conclusion was that many of them experience alienation, feeling disconnected with both their first-generation immigrant parents and from Dutch society. Previous reports had already found that young Muslims don’t share the deep ethno-national attachment their parents feel with their country of origin, and instead are coming to identify primarily with their religion. While they participate less in religious activities than their parents, they more strongly link their identity with Islam and with the global Muslim community;. radical and orthodox Islamic groups offer a some of these young Muslims clear answers and a firm sense of belonging. While prior research found that the degree of religiosity in general decreases among Muslims with higher education and stable employment, the new report noted that highly educated young Muslims can also experience “relative deprivation” all the more strongly - the sense that despite their efforts they receive fewer opportunities than native Dutch of the same generation - and turn to radicalism in anger and frustration.
Oh yeah, you Dutch just have it all figured out, don’t you? Don’t worry, when your Muslim citizens slit your throats and behead you and rape your children, at least they’ll get free medical care six months later.
Comments
Can comment on this directly. My gf is Australian and has a VERY negative view of the American system. And I can elaborate specifically here.
She was having some pains that had gone on pretty consistant for about 3 weeks while she and I were travelling around the U.S., so when we returned to California, I had brought it up with my mom since I dont’ go to doctors and so I didn’t know where to go. We went to the doctor my parents use, explaining the main thing was just to make sure she’d be ok to fly home in a few days. They did a couple tests, but didn’t feel confident to take a blood sample, and because the office that would do that in the same facility had already closed, they sent her to the emergency room of the neighboring hospital. After a fair wait, they proceded to do several other tests, some had already been done once bythe doctor’s office, others that hadn’t been what she was sent over for, and then after several hours, finally had the blood sample taken. We had been there for somewhere around 5 or 6 hours in the emergency room, and about 45 min since last talked to when we finally stopped someone to ask what was going on to find out that she was supposed to have already been released, and that according to the ultrasound taken, they weren’t sure if there was anything or not.
The several thousand dollars in bills (I know it broke $10,000) from the hospital emergency room have been with some frequency showing up at my house since February, even though they were also given her Australian address, and her family had contacted the companies to give them a correct address, and that somewhere a few months ago, after I’d received the first bills and sent them to her, her family had subsequently turned it over to their private insurance that they have (yes, Australians with private health care) and were told everything had been paid as of, I think, April or so. I believe that it was discussed that if not for the private insurance they had, none of it would have been covered.
Of course, its just one story and can’t say anything for the health system as a whole one way or the other, but she absolutely hated it (she had the same diagnosis with substantially less hassle and confusion when she returned to Australia, and a difinitive answer of what was going on) and I’ll be honest, it made me quite a bit uneasy about the hospitals.
I can’t wait for the Atlantic to finally wash over your dikes so we can all gaze in awe at how organized you are. Then, come next Katrina, we’ll know exactly what to do, for free and all. Or maybe we should have let New Orleans wash up on Cuba’s beaches. They always know exactly what to do.i’m glad to live in a country that has thing organised..
If I was assi I’d make a snide remark about who Califorinia’s governor is and where he’s from. And mention Iraqshe and I were travelling around the U.S., so when we returned to California
We see an awful lot of letters and comments on this site that say things like “i experienced your failing heath care system first hand on one of my trips.”. It’s interesting that none of them actually elaborate as to what was so bad about their experience.
To a large extent, the entire argument for a single-payer system is cloaked in vague, questionable claims offering little meaningful proof. It’s not difficult to come up with isolated incidents, but finding a pattern of medical malfunction isn’t easy. In my opinion, that’s why Sicko is a series of examples spread out over almost 15 years. The critics say the faults are covered up by the industry, therefore proof is hidden from the public. Maybe that’s true, but it’s also true that could be a very convenient excuse.
The response to the email seems harsher… than the email… just saying…
sl0re - the response to Theo van Gogh seemed harsher than his work too. I think the point here is an annoyance with this repeated notion that ___insert european country here___ is superior for ___insert reason here___.
For everything that is wrong with America, one can find a correlation with virtually any other country. Pointing fingers and throwing stones ain’t solving problems though.
Um?
Are we really trying to see who can come up with the worst murder?
Certainly a dutchman who is ignorant of his own countries screaming shortcomings to be able to make such an ignorant blanket statement like that.
Hirudin, I know you disagree with the writers at Moorewatch, but it isn’t necessary to shit on everything we do.
*cough*
Posted by JimK on 07/15/2007 at 01:04 PM (Link to this comment | )
Sure, but the part of the letter we saw didn’t even seem like ‘hate’ mail (more like, ‘you stink’ mail) and the response is talking about throat slitting and child rape… ack…sl0re - the response to Theo van Gogh seemed harsher than his work too. I think the point here is an annoyance with this repeated notion that ___insert european country here___ is superior for ___insert reason here___.
Maybe make fun of the idiot on the same level (re: you suck / stink) for even giving a darn about the US healtcare system. Guy should get a life (like, why the hell do you even care guy? Your in utopia, live it up) instead of watching (and beleving.. and getting invested enough to come here to write an email) Moore’s socialist three minute hate clips. The guy is a tool when is all is said and done…
JimK, you know… you’re right.
I’ll stay away from the stuff that I think is completely petty from now on. (This will be my last post on this… news item.)
If I was assi I’d make a snide remark about who Califorinia’s governor is and where he’s from. And mention Iraq
biafra, care to explain what point you’re going for?
"Its your own fault that health care in California is so sorely lacking. Just look at the governor you elected. And look where he’s from: Austria. They’re Europe’s hillbillies. Inbred. Just like stupid Americans.”
- assi
...I’m just lost at this point
They did a couple tests, but didn’t feel confident to take a blood sample,
Not really sure what that means, other then they probably didn’t have any phlebotomists on site and therefore can’t legally (I think) take a sample. More stupid rules that end up hurting us when we need care.
Being official doesn’t really mean jack though, I’ve been to ones before that were so bad I was tempted to take the damn needle from them and draw my own blood.. I could easily do it. Have had it done enough times.
After a fair wait, they proceded to do several other tests, some had already been done once bythe doctor’s office, others that hadn’t been what she was sent over for, and then after several hours, finally had the blood sample taken.
Not sure why they wanted you to go to an ER, but your experience there is not surprising. First, their rules will usually state that they HAVE to redo tests even if another doctor did them, because otherwise if something was missed and later you die or become sicker, you could sue (yay lawyers). Huge waits are due to people that are far worse off being helped first, and in CA, a good chunk of those are going to be illegals (yay lack of enforcing federal immigration laws).
The several thousand dollars in bills (I know it broke $10,000) from the hospital emergency room
You go into an ER for any reason, and you’re basically guaranteed to run up a couple thousand at least. That’s thanks to having to do too many tests (to cover asses), and to cover the cost of those that don’t pay (uninsured and illegals).
It sounds like you got to experience an almost perfect storm of the things about the US healthcare system that sucks. I’m sure the thinking would be different if they had, in fact, found something life threatening and she was able to get surgery to save her life within days, if not hours.
Miguelito, I’ll point out a few things, first of all, I never said something on my personal thoughts of the system. I’m opposed to nationalised health care. However, people kept asking for a story of how someone could possibly have a bad experience with the American system, and I had an example of that. I’m not saying I condemn the whole system for it.
The issue with the blood sample was they were having trouble finding a vein that they felt comfortable taking blood from themselves, and so they were going to refer her to elsewhere to have someone more experienced and confidant take the blood sample.
The reason for being sent to the ER was because it was a weekend, the doctor’s office was in the same centre as the hospital, and the specialists that were closed at that time on Sunday while the ER was still open.
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We see an awful lot of letters and comments on this site that say things like “i experienced your failing heath care system first hand on one of my trips.”. It’s interesting that none of them actually elaborate as to what was so bad about their experience. I highly doubt they did not receive proper care, my guess is they just didn’t like getting a bill.
Now I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that when someone receives emergency care in the US they are often reimbursed by their insurance or uhc of their country and that a US citizen actually pays for care they receive under a uhc in another country, well their insurance does anyways. So what is the problem?