She stepped out on a limb there and asked an actual question of the Pudgy Overlord. I wonder if they’re going to go looking for a new token conservative, one that’s a little more token and a little less conservative.

She stepped out on a limb there and asked an actual question of the Pudgy Overlord. I wonder if they’re going to go looking for a new token conservative, one that’s a little more token and a little less conservative.

A good question, especially in light of her shredding of O’Donnell, which in turn led to Rosie leaving the show 3 weeks early.

As I understand it, the token conservative seat
is something of a revolving door. They’ve replaced it’s occupant, what, 3 times now? More?
I guess it’s just really, really hard to find a conservative that can’t hold their own against the room-temperature-IQ gang that wastes the rest of the space around that table, even when they’re outnumbered. (Which is like… ummm… always?)

Just goes to show you, a room full of the left’s “best and brightest” will still pale in comparison to the intellect of even the dimmest of conservative minds.

Plus… Elizabeth Hasselbeck, Debbie Matenopoulos, Lisa Ling… even competitors for the spot, Erin Hershey Presley and Erin Campos…

Aside from being conservatives who (even the most vapid of which) all easily outstripped the minor-league intellects of their leftist cohosts, they also share yet another quality that the lib seats painfully lack…

They’re all friggin’ hot!

A) For the record, I did not watch that episode of The View.  I saw a clip of the exchange on some news show, but I can’t remember which one. 

B) After watching that exchange, I can’t help but wonder if moore is actually becoming dumber and thus less adept at thinking on his feet, or if he’s just taking it for granted that the MEdia won’t be asking him the tough questions, therefore he doesn’t need to do any pre-show prep.  Or he figures he’s so brilliant that he doesn’t need to prepare.  Either way, Little Liz has to be wearing a Cheshire Cat-like grin these days.

Lord. Someone put it out of my misery.

Hitler?

Yeah, that fucking really advances the discussion.  Maybe instead of registering and just mouthing off to tell us what we believe and think, you could A. Read the past posts and comments, or B. ASK.

Cut the bullshit and talk to us like people.

Are you going to tell me that France has no good physicians? They mapped the HIV virus before we did!

And, yeah, bringing up Hitler is always soooo original, and deep.

A corrupt government administration

Like a Democratic Administration would be different. What does that have to do with health care?
MDF0220, you are funny.

@MDF0220

Sigh....

You would hope that one of these drive bys could be bothered to actually read more than the first post, if they can read.

But expecting that of a Moore fan would be unrealistically optimistic at best.

What a groundbreaking post.  It’s the first time that I’ve seen someone blame Christianity for a person’s dissatisfaction with their healthcare provider.  Amazing.  And miraculous…

Okay.....so I’ve read the disclaimer in regards to the many “thank you’s” you offered to Michael Moore

Really?

but more importantly, for saving your wife’s life

Clearly you need to go back to the 4th grade and take a reading comprehension class.

Tungz
Okay.....so I’ve read the disclaimer in regards to the many “thank you’s” you offered to Michael Moore in return for saving your freedom of speech by way of this website, but more importantly, for saving your wife’s life....and likely from saving you from having to take out a second mortgage or a secured loan, or anything of that nature.

Obviously you didn’t read enough of the disclaimer, or more likely, didn’t comprehend it (common ailment for moore’s disciples).  Moore didn’t save Jim’s wife’s life, the timeline is on page one for you to read.  She was going to get the care regardless.

And the folk here at moorewatch also stepped up to the plate a couple of times, with donated monies, to keep the site going when a fly by night website provider screwed Jim. 

Getting to your assertion that moore is a champion of free speech, I challenge you to go onto his website and post on the public forum that your champeen of free speech gives you. 

And lastly, check the timeline of events and discover that moore created his own timeline, cutting and pasting Jim’s words from this website that said “Mr. Moore, fuck you.” Then, if you’ve boned up on your reading comprehension skills, you’ll find that moore took that quote from a post written six months before Jim even got the anonymous “gift” from moore.  It’s a cut and paste job to make Jim look ingrateful when nothing could be further from the truth. 

I have to tell you Jim, it seems more and more like mikkel’s gift must be turning into an albatross for you.  I’d be saving all of these hate-filled, mis-directed posts to present in court during the lawsuit proceedings against moore.  He obviously has created a situation in which people come here only to berate and I’m sure in some cases, threaten you.  He’s trashed your good name and reputation with his deceitful reconstruct of history.  That’s gotta be worth more than $12 grand.

Tungz, you are but another in a long line of logically challenged drones delivering little pearls of nonsense to regulars here who have thoroughly and completely debunked your line of thinking.

Go easy on Tungz, it appears that he has gone 28 days without a movement.
I would be cranky and illogical too. :D

you should repay the $12,000 debt

I believe that’s the first time I’ve ever heard of a gift as being a debt.  Apparently I need to go back and reimburse friends and family for birthday and Christmas presents I’ve received.
Tungz, is there a statute of limitations on repaying gifts?

I try not to ridicule others’ beliefs.  I let them do it for themselves.

MDF0220, I for one would like to thank you for posting.  Nothing helps our case quite like hearing from the opposition.

MDF0220, you’re my new hero. I’ve been trying to convince the repugnicans here of the same things for years, but have never been able to phrase my thoughts and ideas as clearly and succicntly as you have in your few posts here thus far.

Thank you for being the voice of reason in this sea of insanity. You will be well remembered by myself and undoubtedly by all the right-wing whackos that frequent this site.

But as with most of the right, they are taking their intepretation of Christ from Pat Robertson or GWB so obviously the correlation between the two would be lost.

You will be well remembered by… all the right-wing whackos that frequent this site.

And undoubtedly the left-wing whackos, as well.

You yourself barely was able to afford healthcare and had to be bailed out by all people Michael Moore!

False.

Socialized medicine is the only answer.

The only answer.  Srsly.

Where is the Christianity? Where is the caring for the poor and the sick? You are supporting something that is the complete opposite of christianity.

Not to speak too much for Jim, but I don’t think he’s much of a spiritual guy.

I however am, and will answer your question as though it was directed at me.

Christianity does indeed urge us to each look out for our fellow man.  To sacrifice of ourselves in the service of others.  To lift up those who cannot lift themselves up.  And I think we should do that.  Every single one of us.  I DO NOT think that the GOVERNMENT should be the one doing that.  Do not confuse a PERSONAL philosophy with a POLITICAL philosophy.  Christ taught us to go out and lift up our neighbors, he did not teach us to go out and elect people to lift up our neighbors for us.

Referencing Hitler is obvious.

Obviously a poor debating tactic, yes.

Just because the dumbass who operates this site has a disclaimer about how he has responded to the 12000 Moore gave him doesnt mean anyone should stop bringing it up.

No, but it does mean you are not the first person to be SO CLEVER as to realize the irony.  It also means that your claim has already been answered before, and stating it again is not going to change the answer.  So you can save yourself the trouble and read his response, which would be exactly what he would tell you anyway.

So in short whatever argument these dumb asses make they will forever be known as the guys Michael Moore bailed out due to hospital bills.

That is probably true, so long as people like you continue to ignore the fact that the hospital bills were only one aspect of the problem, and the issue was resolved TWO YEARS before Moore contacted Jim.

I think its beyond obvious how Christianity and Universal Health Care go together. But as with most of the right, they are taking their intepretation of Christ from Pat Robertson or GWB so obviously the correlation between the two would be lost.

Given the “obvious” nature of your second statement (which shows how little you really know of “the right"), it is no surprise you think your first statement is “obvious”.  There is nothing in the Bible that states “Thou shalt commission thy government to manage thy health care.”

saving your freedom of speech

False.  Jim’s freedom of speech is not and never has been threatened.

more importantly, for saving your wife’s life

Doubly false.  Her life was never in danger.

Resultantly(and obviously unbeknownst to you), any subsequent attack on Michael Moore’s character has been rendered impotent; utterly diffused, as you struggle with the paradigm of consciously biting the hand that has fed you.

That wouldn’t be anything like a paradox, would it?

Maybe if Moore hadn’t waited TWO YEARS to call and offer the money, then the “attack” on his “character” might be “impotent”.

However, now that you know, and considering that you are still rightfully entitled to your opinion(s),if you wish to continue attacking Michael Moore while maintaining your integrity and sense of dignity(which has only proven thus far to be a lack thereof), you should repay the $12,000 debt.

If Jim can only “keep” the money (strange to place conditions on a gift, sir) if he changes his tune about Moore, isn’t that a little like buying his good graces?  And wouldn’t that be a REAL detriment to his integrity, as opposed to this manufactured one you are trumpeting?

You think the dipshit has realized that he’s attacking the people who run this site for protecting a government he apparently hates very much, but wants them to be put in charge of our healthcare?  I don’t think he’s even read the main post here.

So yeah UHC would be pretty Christian dont you think since it would be taking care of the sick and the poor when needed?

Did you read my post at all?

And to ask for like the fifth time who exactly are the people who run this site defending? The government? WHY? I have not gotten a straight answer on this yet.

People with libertarian leanings seldom defend the government on issues like this.

Also, people who DON’T WANT THE GOVERNMENT MANAGING THEIR HEALTH CARE typically would not be defending the government on issues like this.  Your question makes absolutely no sense.

They should replace Hassleback with Bill O Reilly’s whore Michelle Malkin.

Is that the Christian way to phrase that?

Are you telling me that these people are to be denied medical care? Shouldnt the government be picking up the tab?

Yes, the government should pick up their tab.  That does not translate to the government picking up the tab of 300,000,000 people.  See there?  I solved that problem very easily without instituting a single-payer system.  So I guess that particular topic has nothing to do with a universal system, does it?

What I find so endlessly amusing is how the right never answers any of these allegations and instead jut attacks the left or those who disagree for something unrelated or personal?

I think you have it backwards, sir.  Especially since this site (which I would assume would be “right” if you insist on dividing everything into “left” and “right” without any other consideration) brings FACTS to the table to attack Michael Moore (other than the repeated claims of fatness, but what can you do).  Just because you fail to understand the answers or choose to ignore them does not mean they have not been provided.

Interestingly, you came on here and compared the writers to Hitler.  Isn’t that the exact opposite of what you are now claiming?  If what you say is true, then if anything, Jim et al would log on to Moore’s forums and call the people THERE Hitlers and whores and other such literary gems.

Oh wait, Moore took down his forums.  Never mind.

No wonder sicko came in at #9 at the box office last weekend.  His followers got sidetracked after seeing the posters for Ratouille.

A corrupt government administration and healthcare system that puts maximizing profits over caring for patients?

What it realy comes down to is simple, and as per usual, corporate greed and the need to profit over anything else even at the expense of human life.

Pretty bold statements MDF0220 . . . got anything of substance to prove what you believe?

Obvious troll is obvious. Ban it so it can run back to DU to sob out its butthurt, and let’s get on with our day.

If the last seven years under Bush hasnt shown you rampant corruption they you are obviously brain dead.

Specifically, regarding health care, since that is the topic of the hour, explain how our corrupt Bush administration and the health care industry as a whole has put maximizing profits over caring for patients?  Show concrete proof of what you’re saying.  Give me the numbers of claim denials last year that were clearly attempts to maximize profits for HMOs.

... I never brought up homosexuality. You did. And considering that you’re a damn obvious troll, your attempts at claiming the moral high ground of “Oh real mature!” are somewhat dubious at best.

(The closet cases always have so much pent-up rage. Been there. Was still less of an asshole.)

Yeah it still has something to do with a single payer system because these people are being screwed over because they arent covered by a major insurance compnay.

No it doesn’t.  It has something to do with the government paying the costs of disaster relief.  We have a whole department for that stuff.  Health care for the workers should be part of that expense.  NOTHING TO DO WITH A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.

If we had a Universal System this wouldnt be a problem.

A broad statement with little factual support and zero consideration for all the pitfalls of a state-managed system.

Also why are you against a universal system. I hope its not for reasons as ludicrous as those of Sean Hannity who says that if people had UHC they wouldnt have a reason to work or get up in the morning and salve for their corporate masters.

If you have nothing better to do than write a bunch of hate about conservative TV pundits and graft their rhetoric onto other people, I don’t see why I should waste any time trying to explain anything to you.  Why don’t you just go watch Fox News tonight, write down whatever they say and just pretend that’s what I typed in this space.  That’s what you’re going to do in your mind anyway, so there’s little point in trying to convince you that we here are just people, who have our own opinions for our own reasons.

If the last seven years under Bush hasnt shown you rampant corruption they you are obviously brain dead.

More statements about the (supposedly) “obvious”.  If rampant government corruption is so obvious, how is putting them in charge of everyone’s health care equally “obvious” as the “only solution”?

... oops?

Yes I must be gay if I dont agree with this horseshit.

He wasn’t calling you gay.  Just shows how little you try to understand.

He wasn’t calling you gay.

I gotta wonder NOW, though. I mean, his thoughts went right there, and right to defending himself. I mean, I’m not saying that’s indicative of anything, but if he’s that paranoid…

test

es I must be gay if I dont agree with this horseshit.

*sigh*

It’s not a gay reference.  It’s a reference to lolcats.  “Butthurt” is when people act all indignant and offended over stupid shit on a forum or blog.  Like...well...you just did.

The clue was the __adjective__ __noun__ is __repeat adjective__ format of his first sentence.

The More You Know! (ting!)

No I read the post I just dont really give much credibility or pay much attention to what Elizabeth Hassleback has to say.

Why?  She’s actually right some of the time.  Should we all ignore Moore because he’s a far left liberal?  Should we never once give him credit for anything, ever because of his politics?  Because THAT’S the road you’re on.  She’s a EVUUUULLL KONSERVATIVE right?  So her opinion doesn’t matter?

What is that sound I hear? Is that the sound of your mind slamming shut?

What is that sound I hear? Is that the sound of your mind slamming shut?

That, or a paradigm shifting without a clutch.

Also, for more information on butthurt, rather than embarrass yourself at your local library, please see here for the concise version, and here for a longer, more offensive, possibly funnier version.

That, or a paradigm shifting without a clutch.

That’s bad.  You’ll rip out your Dharma transmission doing that.

MDF . . . yet another drive-by trolling . . . no substance . . . no back up . . . no reasoning . . . just a mouth who has no idea why he believes what he believes.

Blah blah blah.

I’m bored.

You’re boring, Zoidberg.

MDF0220 wrote both of these in one thread:

No I read the post I just dont really give much credibility or pay much attention to what Elizabeth Hassleback has to say.

Oh, I forgot, its a Michael Moore film, in your universe they must be actors and none of it is true.

MDF0220, do you really not see the blatant hypocrisy there?  How can you function as a human being with that amount of cognitive dissonance rattling around in your head?

You must be joking, this whole website is beyond all reason.

By “reason”, you mean “comparing people to Hitler”, right?

Of course you couldnt spot a reasonable argument when one is presented.

And you can’t spot a paragraph break when one is presented.  Or punctuation.  And yet through it all I deciphered your rantings and guess what?  They are still baseless.

Thats not concrete proof?

That’s concrete proof that there are unethical practices in the industry.  That is NOT concrete proof that universal care is the “only solution”.  It is not even concrete proof that the entire system is broken.  The good doctor PROPOSES CORRECTIVE ACTION.

Oh, I forgot, its a Michael Moore film, in your universe they must be actors and none of it is true.

Remember that conversation we had a little bit earlier about you putting your words in other people’s mouths based on your fundamentally flawed perspective of conservative principles?  This would be that.  If you want to have a conversation with your own personal right-wing sock-puppet, take it somewhere else and spare me the bandwidth.  Anytime you’re ready to genuinely hear what other people have to say, let us know.

Can someone with more patience than I have tally up the “fox” and “rove” and other right-wing smear language that MDF has used in this thread alone? I’m curious to see just how ridiculous he is in quantifiable numbers.

I note that almost none of that kind of language has been returned his way. His own intelligence has been called into question but no one has accused him of being part of the DU/Move ON far left wing machine...or called him a whore. Pretty telling.

Don’t talk like that, Jim.  “Whore” is a reasonable argument with concrete proof.  You just can’t spot it when it’s presented to you.

To be fair to your statement, though:

Obvious troll is obvious. Ban it so it can run back to DU to sob out its butthurt, and let’s get on with our day.

Rann did drop the DU bomb on him a while ago.  That’s the only one I’ve found, though.

I called him a dipshit, but when he’s spouting stupid garbage, like arguing about the site admins defending the government that he clearly hates, but at the same time telling us that we need to put that same government in charge of our health where the site admins are pretty much completely against it.  Well dipshit doesn’t really begin to cover it.

Rann did drop the DU bomb on him a while ago.

Well, yeah, but just in a sort of general way. I could have easily said “myspace” or “LJ” or whatever.

If the last seven years under Bush hasnt shown you rampant corruption they you are obviously brain dead.

Clinton tried pushing through UHC only to be defeatd by most of the republican party and John Edwards is trying again if he gets elected.

So this administration is corrupt ? You obviously don’t want it in charge of UHC. Then who ?

The second quote tells me you think highly of Bill Clinton. Read a book called “Year of the Rat”
to get a definition of corruption.

arguing about the site admins defending the government that he clearly hates, but at the same time telling us that we need to put that same government in charge of our health where the site admins are pretty much completely against it.

Well, that’s just how much smarter and more reasonable than you he is, Buzz.  Anyone with half a brain (which is no one on this site since we all drink the Karl Rove Kool-Aid and watch LOL Faux News ROFL) can see that these two seemingly contradictory statements are actually saying the same thing, and he has used his ninja debating skills to reveal our hypocrisy and ineffective arguments.

Ah, yes, the Internet Independent. Because saying you’re an Independent, even when you vote straight-party Democrat, means you’re an individual and a free-thinker.

Anyway, once we’ve all swum out of the irony gushing in floodgates from its last few poses… NOW can I say that the troll was a textbook DUer? ‘Cause, c’mon…

I see the little DU trollboy isn’t going to actually grow up or try to be an adult...so...plonk.

You set the tone MDF, who the fuck told you we are all “fucking conservatives “ here?
It can’t be that cold in NY that you need so many blanket statements.

Thats not concrete proof?

From your link:

We have enough experiences from history to demonstrate the consequences of secretive, unregulated systems which go awry. The list above is not new. In fact, it comes from a book detailing the characteristics of a dire period of recent history. The last time this combination of forces worked in concert, over 200,000 individuals lost their lives in Nazi Germany (even before the Final Solution). Most of these persons were German citizens sacrificed for medical reasons set by economic and social agendas. I find the parallels chilling. One can only wonder: how much pain, suffering and death will we have before we have the courage to change our course? Personally, I have decided even one death is too much for me.

I know where the good Doctor is coming from. And she makes her OPINIONS very clear. I’ve yet to see any proof of what she is saying.

Her entire missive is based entirely on her perspective. She makes it very clear she believes she caused the death of a man by denying his claim for a heart operation. She never mentions the reason for the denial. She doesn’t say whether that claim was appealed or not.

Overall, it appears her concerns may have some merit, but she never offers anything to prove her points. These are her own observations. I want to know exactly how big a problem this is.

From your link:

Later, my work as a medical director in a hospital and as a physician executive at Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Kentucky convinced me that the place made no difference. Whether it was non-profit or for-profit, whether it was a health plan or hospital, I had a common task: using my medical expertise for the financial benefit of the organization, often at great harm and potentially death, to some patients.

What does this tell you?

When I look at the actual records of the number of denials in the State of Indiana regarding experiment treatment, it just doesn’t jive with what the good doctor is saying. 3 million enrollees, 76 claims, 47 accepted by the HMO with 9 appealed to the state government and 4 denied again. This doesn’t exactly constitute proof of an industry out to screw their customers. (And yes, government denied 4 people’s appeal.)

25 experimental treatment denials out of 3,000,000 enrollees is unethical in what way? Were these denials based on pre-existing conditions? Did the contract not list exclusions? Exactly how many of these treatments were life threating?

From your link:

Although a source of great academic analysis and political rhetoric, the emphasis on “societal good,” is actually a dangerous road to follow. Its plain meaning should be made obvious to the average person. It means that certain individuals’ needs are superseded by the needs of the whole, i.e. some individual’s well-being and life will be sacrificed for some larger group. One of the unique distinctions traditionally of American health care is that we place great emphasis on the value of each individual. This means that we are not accustomed to thinking in terms that make some lives expendable. (Although, of course, we can find many examples of this in subtle forms throughout society, we do not make it explicit.) Generally, we are not a culture willing to give up something that is important to us in order for someone else to share in the goods; we are even less a culture to give something for the benefit of someone else if it requires our sacrifice. When you listen to the average person talk in some places of the world, one can actually hear this kind of willingness and sense of commitment to the whole group. However desirable it might be to change our cultural thinking, it is certainly not what most believe now.

The good doctor makes a very valid point here. We make decisions every day of every year that cost people their lives. I used to make decisions that affected the saftey of children when I designed school buildings. As a society we make the decision NOT to put safety belts on school buses knowing full well the eventual outcome. We do this because the costs outweigh the benefit. How much is one child’s life worth? As harsh as it may seem, there are people in this world who are charged with the responsibility to make these decisions.

These are exactly the same decisions that socialized health care systems all over the world are making every day. Wait times in effect can be denials. And the NHS in the UK is considering limiting life-saving treatment to certain people because of their lack of resources.

As w0rf pointed out, the good doctor is giving her opinions of how we might improve our system. The faults she sees she makes clear. What she doesn’t do is define the extent of those faults, nor does she demonstrate that the health care industry as a whole is ethically challenged to the point that it’s nothing but a greedy institution out to maximize profits at the expense of individuals as you seem to believe. In fact, given that the vast majority of HMO customers are employer group plans, I seriously doubt any HMO that wants to remain financially solvent is out there deliberately denying employee claims just to make a buck. It makes no sense for them to deny a claim and lose the entire corporate account.

So, no, opinions are not concrete proof.