I’ve noticed that this is a recent example, whereas many of Moore’s examples have to go back 15 and 20 years.

A related editorial in the Wall Street Journal. This paragraph jumped off the page:

In Britain, the Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients wait more than a year for surgery. Around the time Mr. Moore was putting the finishing touches on his documentary, a hospital in Sutton Coldfield announced its new money-saving linen policy: Housekeeping will no longer change the bed sheets between patients, just turn them over. France’s system failed so spectacularly in the summer heat of 2003 that 13,000 people died, largely of dehydration. Hospitals stopped answering the phones and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.

Now, I haven’t seen Sicko yet, so I’m asking: Does Mikey cover any of this in the movie?

Now, I haven’t seen Sicko yet, so I’m asking: Does Mikey cover any of this in the movie?

Well, the reviews say his movie is one sided but raises important questions… so I’m thinking no.

Of course, the reviews raise important questions about the reviewers… IMO....

I think a while back I read an article about the shortage of doctors in Canada, at least in some fields of medicine.  As I remember, the shortage was due to the Canadian government setting fee payment for certain services too low.  Many doctors just left the country because they could make more money.  However, there were other problems as well.  The number of MRI devices in Canada was far from being desirable.

I also read not long ago where one European country was passing a law that if a citizen couldn’t get treatment within a certain time frame, they could go out of country and send the bill home.  For the life of me, I just cannot understand why any government would confiscate taxes for healthcare in the name of universal equality, then effectively deny treatment to a taxpaying citizen.  In effect, it’s a denial of what they consider a basic human right.

I see there’s one case where the Canadian Supreme Court agrees with that.

I’ve stated before, when I needed an ultrasound on my leg after rupturing my bursa sac, I told the scheduler that I didn’t have the time that day and I wanted to make sure that it was covered on my insurance.  Her response was “Your doctor says that you’re getting the ultrasound this afternoon and we’ll worry about payment when we get to that bridge.  If your insurance doesn’t cover it, we have ways of taking care of it.” They made their ultrasound techs work 1 1/2 hours overtime to get me through the eeeevil U.S. healthcare system.  The two of them probably made about $50 an hour that night, cutting into someone’s profit margin.  My out of pocket payment was less than $30.  End of story.

As a Canadian I have to comment on this one…

First my disclaimer: I love assault rifles and am pro-death penalty, and very much a supporter of Canada’s war effort in Afghanistan. Technically that makes me a right-leaning Canadian.

But I just HAVE to point out that the dreadful little film on youtube about that unfortunate man is FAR from the norm in the Canadian healthcare system. It uses the same careful omission of a few critical details that Moore uses in his films.

It is extreme case of a person who slipped through the cracks in our system. They show up every few years and make headlines across the country. For a week or so after people rally for privatized healthcare, then the fervor fades away as the details of the case unfold.

The majority of these cases are the result of misdiagnosis by the attending physician. Malpractice happens everywhere, since doctors are human. That is why people get second opinions.

A doctor in Canada, particularly a specialist, has the the power to order an immediate MRI or CT scan if they truly believe there is something to be discovered. People with trivial issues can be bumped on a moments notice.

Personally I had a CT scan within 1 HOUR of seeing a specialist regarding a sinus infection I had a few years back. I saw the specialist within 48 hours my my GP (family doctor) requesting I look further into the lingering headaches and flu-like symptoms I was suffering from that week.

That was a sinus infection.. potentially dangerous, but nothing like a tumor. I saw a nose and throat specialist the next day, and I was given “medical grade” cocaine (which I did not even know existed!)

The Canadian medical system is sadly plagued by hypochondriacs. Thousands of people get a sore shoulder and want something more then an X-ray done on it. Tens of thousands get a headache or suffer from migraines and demand an MRI from their doctor.

In most cases these are people crying “wolf” and the MRI eventually shows up what the doctors originally believed: Not a tumor.

But they make it very hard for legitimate people who could benefit from early detection of something more serious. Sadly the wait lists fill up and every now and then a legitimate cases gets caught up in this mess.

The same is true for long wait times that can occur at a hospital ER. Canadians are kind of spoiled and wander into an ER with a common cold. They can expect a very long wait, since people with REAL issues are treated first.

I have been to the ER about 16 times for myself or my family. In almost every case I was admitted with 15 minutes.

Something as simple as a mild bit of asthma acting up, and I walk right past all the fools sitting there with their Kleenex and their head cold. They can complain all they want.. there is no cure for the common cold.

The longest ER wait I ever had was when friends took me there at around midnight on a friday after, ahem… excessive drinking. This was in my college days. I had kind of skipped eating that day and proceeded to a bit of binge drinking since noon. I had passed out and bumped my head a bit… nothing serious but my friends wanted me checked out.

So yea, people with REAL issues got admitted ahead of me that night and it took over an hour for a doctor to check me out. I got a ton of toxicology work done on my blood (just in case), had the usual routine of checking for a concussion, etc. (I had abit of a goose egg when I bumped my head). But I was fine. I got a bit of a lecture from the doctor and was sent home.

The most right-wing Canadian I know (and a very good friend of mine) can tell you about his father and how he went in for his annual physical last year. He was under the knife that same week for preventative bypass surgery since the doctor saw a ticking time bomb in his chest and didn’t want to risk a heart attack in the near future.

So my point: you cannot use these “one in a million” cases shown in the youtube video to prove the Canadian system is flawed. For the same reason Michael Moore can’t take a case from 10 years ago when an insurance company left a patient to die, and call that “normal American treatment”.

I agree with Mr. Trout… this was an extreme case that is not the norm in Canada, the same as most of the cases presented in Sicko are not the norm in the U.S. Example: I am from Canada and on June 12 of this year I had an episode where I became light headed, had blurred vision, and numbness in my left arm and leg. My wife told me that those were symptoms of a stroke so I should go see a doctor right away. I went the next day. My doctor works in a walk in clinic so I am unable to make appointments with him so I had to wait about an hour, which is average, to get in to see him. He didn’t seem to think it was a stroke (after checking my history, giving me a once over, and knowing that I am only 34 years old) so he asked me to get get some tests done (bloodwork, ECG, etc.) and said he would have his office call me back and schedule me for a CT Scan. I went and got all the tests done the next day (Thursday) and all the results were sent to him by Monday at which point his office called me to say everything was fine but that they would still have me do the CT Scan and it was scheduled for June 29th. A little ways off yes, but it was because they didn’t have much concern at the time to do it sooner. Then the same symptoms happened again on June 23rd. I went straight to the ER and got in within 15 minutes. They did more of the same tests on me again (bloodwork etc) and did a CT Scan and chest x-ray right there and then. I was in and out of the ER within 3 hours that night. The doctor there said the scan and x-ray were both negative and he was leaning towards migraines (which I have never had before but which were most likely brought on by stress) as the cause of the symptoms. My doctor concurred and said a neurologist would be contacting me to book an appointment with him to find out exactly what is going on. I was called by his office within a couple days and the appointment was made for Sept 7th. Yes it is a ways off, but I know if I have anymore problems I will be bumped to the top of the list and sent in to see him right away. So yes, there are wait times but the people who need immediate care, get it right away.

I would also like to point out that some provinces have elected to have a two-tier system in Canada (something left out in the film).

These systems are interesting. At the base level all residents in a two tier system still have universal health care courtesy of the federal government.

However, if people want to buy private insurance or pay for care themselves, there are certain private clinics that can expedite certain procedures that tend to have wait lists.

Typically if you want an annual MRI “just in case...”, without any symptoms or reason to do so, you will be expected to face a VERY long wait time. Or if you want plastic surgery to remove an unsightly scar or old tattoo, the wait time can be also be rather long.

But on a two tier system, those with the financial means are able to expedite these kinds of procedures through a second private “for profit” system that overlaps the free universal one.

The province of Alberta, for example, has more money then it knows what to do with due to having an insane amount of oil. They eliminated all sales tax and have given out “rebate” checks periodically to its residents (due to the $8,5 billion dollar surplus of government money).

So they were an obvious choice to explore the two tier system. There were enough people who could easily afford to pay out of their own pocket to “move to the front of the line” on non-critical care issues by dealing with a private system.

But guess who else has a two tier system? France! About one third of hospital stays are in private clinics, and the private sector almost exclusively covers things like laser eye surgery, etc.

So for the humanitarians who worry about the homeless guy in the alley, don’t worry! He is safe in the universal system and he will get fantastic care if he ever needs it.

But for those who already have their home in the city and the weekend home at the lake, they can pay extra to get the non-essential or cosmetic procedures they want in no time at all.

Personally I see no harm in such a system, but it has caused an uproar in Canadian politics.

Just as Americans see universal health care as the first step towards a communist state, Canadians see a two tier system as the first step towards a fascist regime. I swear, they think that any day now Ann Coulter will show up to buy organs from poor people.

People can be very unreasonable…

this was an extreme case that is not the norm in Canada, the same as most of the cases presented in Sicko are not the norm in the U.S.

Perhaps then you see our dismay, that an irresponsible filmmaker has taken extreme cases and painted them as the norm.  I imagine your country would be outraged if Moore did that with Canadian health care. 
And that his disingenuous excuse that he was merely “provoking debate” would similarly not fly.

Just as Americans see universal health care as the first step towards a communist state . . .

I don’t think that is what Americans see at all. Personally, with a single-payer system I see the very institution I fear the most running the show. And the misconception that government can be “efficient” at controlling the cost of health care just has to be one of the most laughable flights of fancy I ever heard in my entire life.

The basic concept behind socialized medicine isn’t to provide health care to everyone . . . it’s to provide health care equality to everyone. That’s exactly the reason you cannot purchase an $800 MRI exam in Canada (legally) . . . it isn’t fair to everyone for some more affluent people to do so, therefore, it’s against the law.

And that is exactly why there are 40-fold the number of MRI units in the U.S. as there are in Canada (4 times per capita more in the U.S.), and exactly why twice the percentage of U.S. citizens get MRI exams a year.

You say this is an isolated incident. I tend to agree. The numbers don’t show a mass exodus out of Canada for the hospitals of the U.S. Nevertheless, when it happens, it happens more often than not in critical situations. And it happens because no government can deliver comprehensive medical equality to all and remain solvent.

The province of Alberta, for example, has more money then it knows what to do with due to having an insane amount of oil. They eliminated all sales tax and have given out “rebate” checks periodically to its residents (due to the $8,5 billion dollar surplus of government money).

Mr Trout, I myself live in Alberta… while you are right about the rebate checks (Every Alberta resident received a one time check of about 400 bucks) as far as I am aware we have never had a provincial sales tax and I think we are the only province which is residents have to pay a monthly premium for their health care (around $40 a month per person). While we just have our 6% federal tax (GST) and no Provincial Sales Tax, other provinces pay their 6% GST and anywhere from 5% to 10% PST. That’s basically where they end up not having to pay a monthly premium whereas we do.

Rebel, that is true. I used to live in Alberta before my career brought me elsewhere.

Alberta (as well as British Columbia) do have a premium for health coverage, although seniors or the unemployed don’t have to pay it. Native indians and immigrants who came to Canada as refuges also do not have to pay.

If you fall under financial hardship you can go for up to 6 months without needing to pay your premium while maintaining full coverage. You simply apply for an exemption.

Furthermore, every employer is expected to cover AT LEAST 50% of the health care premium leaving the remaining $22 to be paid by the individual. Typically as an incentive to attract employees, a company will cover 100% of the premium.

This health premium, in my opinion, is a fine example of how people can help offset the cost of their own healthcare in a universal care system.

The cost is trivial, and it goes down if a person is working only part time at a 7-1 for example. People pay what they can afford to pay, up to the full $44 per month or whatever it is at this year. And NO one can be denied coverage, regardless of medical history, etc. 

But this health premium has nothing to do with the fact that Alberta residents don’t pay sales tax. It’s the oil.... It has always been the oil.

The two largest oil reserves in north America are both located in Alberta, and in fact the only place on earth with a larger oil reserve is saudi arabia (Venezuala may soon surpass SA with an estimated increase from 54 billion to 360 billion barrels as they dig deeper).

You province has more oil then the the USA and Iraq combined. A few years ago Alberta was thought to have only 4 billion barrels, but this was revised recently to easily surpass 180 billion.

The result is that you not only have a debt free government (which is almost unheard of anywhere in the western hemisphere), but also one of the hottest economies on the planet.

Long story short: Alberta residents wont pay tax for a few generations yet. And their cost of medical care likely wont go above the $20-$40 you pay now, if anything it will eventually drop to nothing and provide even more coverage.

You’re living in the “promised land”, dude… enjoy!

Interesting article in “The Nation” by Naomi Klein about the Alberta boom:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070618/klein

I’d like to join this debate civilly, being more pro than anti-Moore. I can nevertheless preface by saying that yes I think he exaggerates, distorts and is far from objective, but that’s what we can expect from him. It doesn’t detract from his larger point, in my opinion, that the American health care system is broken and needs to be overhauled, and that national health care systems in different countries can offer a lot that is of potential benefit to us. This Youtube posting showing a horror case from the Canadian system just does the same as it accuses Moore of doing, and is far less good at it. As others have pointed out, it’s rather exceptional in Canada, but I’m in no position to corroborate that either personally or academically. I can speak, however, to absolute disinformation in the piece: no single “liberal democrat” (with the possible exception of Dennis Kucinich, who is marginalized in the mainstream media) is advocating a Canadian-style single-payer system for the US. And neither did Hillary in 93-94, as ironically Moore fails to point out himself. All of the leading candidates are calling for a vaguely defined “universal coverage,” but an eminently /private/ one at that, with more efficiency and various schemes to insure the 44 million or so uninsured ( I notice no one here mentioning that Canada has nowhere near 15% of their population uninsured—how many of those 44 million can get an MRI or anything else without financial hardship or bankruptcy, much less the same day? I’d rather have to wait a while in a non-life threatening situation and be covered in Canada than be uninsured in the US).

What Michael Moore does is bring these other systems into the realm of debate. It’s a huge failing of the American media not to prominently investigate these other systems and their pluses and minuses and let the American public decide what system they want, not leave it to health care lobbyists who buy off politicians and keep even the option of a nationalized system off any reform agenda in which it would have a realistic chance to be seriously considered, let alone implemented. And yes, by the way, France does have private health insurance; my mom, who is French, bought a supplemental insurance and has gotten excellent care in France, never having to worry about co-pays, partial coverage, denial of care due to preexisting conditions or experimental procedures, etc. The French health system, while not flawless by any means, is more efficient, cheaper and covers far more people than in the US (and even covering for its deficit would still make it half as expensive as the US’s, with all its overhead and administrative costs, advertising for profit, etc). The results is France being no. 1 in WHO rankings in the world. Now rather than bash Moore for excessively (and frankly, ridiculously) idealizing the French system, why don’t we have an informed discussion about it and allow it to be seriously considered as one among many models of health care for the US? In that spirit, I’m profeering a few links that I found of interest (I don’t think anyone to the right of me politically can denounce my first two sources):

A 2004 survey of satisfaction with health care, the US ranking lowest among developed countries: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html

A recent AP article listing some of Moore’s exaggerations or decontextualizations without attacking him for the sake of it: http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jul01/0,4670,SickoUSFactCheck,00.html

And France displacing the US as the country with no.1 quality of life in the world:
http://www.internationalliving.com/qol06/

(incidentally, not so much for its health care system, but because the US’s “freedom” index has declined under Bush).

Sincerely,

himishi

A long collection of the standard arguments that are empty and meaningless. Everything you’ve posted has been posted before, and it’s just as vapid and pointless as it was the first time someone made all of these lame excuses and moved all those goalposts.

Thank god I don’t live in the USA. To be so narrow headed say “socialized” medicine is a bad thing. These people might need to get a passport and travel to some other countries and check for them self’s how bad things are. Did you know that only 1/3 of the US population have a passport.

You are the only country in the industrial world who 50 million people living like we did in the 1700-1800 century.

Wonder why you have so much money to wast on war then on your own people.

Thank god I don’t live in the USA.

We’re pretty happy about it too.

Did you know that only 1/3 of the US population have a passport.

You are the only country in the industrial world who 50 million people living like we did in the 1700-1800 century.

Yeah, well, speaking for all us serfs without passports out here on the wild frontier, after we get done unhitching the mule from our plows, we sure get a kick out of reading the outlandish ignorance some people from foreign lands feel they need to display on our computer screens.

50 million people living like we did in the 1700-1800 century.

A few months ago it was 30 million, and then 40 million, now it’s 50 million...?  Would someone please pick a number and stick with it??  Unless… horror of horrors… it’s an UNINSURED POPULATION EXPLOSION!

A few months ago it was 30 million, and then 40 million, now it’s 50 million...?  Would someone please pick a number and stick with it??  Unless… horror of horrors… it’s an UNINSURED POPULATION EXPLOSION!

Maybe the Weinsteins took a cue from Moore. Since he’s such an advocate of unions but refuses to allow his (apparently rather maligned and abused) film crews to unionize, the Weinsteins decided to cut their employees’ health benefits.

“Well, it’s Bush’s fault that you don’t have health insurance now. If he’d just give you universal healthcare, you wouldn’t be without it once we cut your benefits!”

Thank god I don’t live in the USA.

Praise Him!

To be so narrow headed say “socialized” medicine is a bad thing.

You need to understand our system of government better. I urge you to read our Constitution and find the part where it explains how the federal government is responsible for the health and well being of its citizens.

These people might need to get a passport and travel to some other countries and check for them self’s how bad things are.

Since one has to cross an ocean to visit most other countries, it makes it pretty expensive to take a trip just to “check for them self’s how bad things are.” Most people aren’t going to fly fourteen hours just to check out the slums.

Did you know that only 1/3 of the US population have a passport.

I’m not sure if english is your first language, but we generally end a question with a question mark. That’s why it’s called a “question mark.”

To respond to your point, though, the bottom line is that we don’t need them. We have almost everything the rest of the world has to offer, as far as geography, scenery, local customs and weather go. There’s no reason that one would need to leave the country for leisure, generally speaking. I’ve had my passport for years but have never needed to use it for anything other than identification.

You are the only country in the industrial world who 50 million people living like we did in the 1700-1800 century.

There are 50 million Amish in the US? Wow, I didn’t know it was that high.

Wonder why you have so much money to wast on war then on your own people.

Actually, it’s an investment in the future, all being done for our own people. You see, we’re an oil-hungry nation, and all the oil is over there, where the brown people are. So we drop some bombs and kill some kite-flying kids to ensure that we’ll have access to that oil for the next couple of generations. I thought you guys already knew all of this…