Private Hosercare
Later on this year Michael Moore will release “Sicko,” his look at the American healthcare system. In this film he will undoubtedly, as he has done for years, extoll the virtues and the compassion of the Canadian system. The only problem is that the Canadian system doesn’t work, and to supplement its failures Canadian doctors are turning to eeeeevil free market capitalism and private insurance.
The country’s publicly financed health insurance system — frequently described as the third rail of its political system and a core value of its national identity — is gradually breaking down. Private clinics are opening around the country by an estimated one a week, and private insurance companies are about to find a gold mine.
Dr. Day, for instance, is planning to open more private hospitals, first in Toronto and Ottawa, then in Montreal, Calgary and Edmonton. Ontario provincial officials are already threatening stiff fines. Dr. Day says he is eager to see them in court.
“We’ve taken the position that the law is illegal,” Dr. Day, 59, says. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years.”
Oh wait, it gets better.
The median wait time between a referral by a family doctor and an appointment with a specialist has increased to 8.3 weeks last year from 3.7 weeks in 1993, according to a recent study by The Fraser Institute, a conservative research group. Meanwhile the median wait between appointment with a specialist and treatment has increased to 9.4 weeks from 5.6 weeks over the same period.
Average wait times between referral by a family doctor and treatment range from 5.5 weeks for oncology to 40 weeks for orthopedic surgery, according to the study.
Last December, provincial health ministers unveiled new targets for cutting wait times, including four weeks for radiation therapy for cancer patients beginning when doctors consider them ready for treatment and 26 weeks for hip replacements.
Now, call me crazy, but even your average heartless HMO here in America will provide superior care than that. The problem is that HMOs are private, whereas government is public, so in the mind of Mikey and those like him the government is more compassionate, even when delivering inferior care.
Comments
[sarcasm]
I suppose it is wrong for anyone to comment on the sacred cow that is Moore. Lee, what are you thinking?
[/sarcasm]
It is funny how the left starts hating free speech the second they dislike the words being said.
OT, but Sheehan just issued a challenge on her most recent post on Moore’s site. She says she never claimed to speak for anyone else.
This will be next.
[url=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8122-2022823,00.html]
No, patients were not waiting .[/url]
Having gone thru the NHS twice over the last year (thanfully for minor problems). I will say the people (doctors, nurses etc) have been great. But you do get the impression that you are on a conveyor belt which suddenly generates shortcuts when needed.
I was given an 18 month waiting time for an MRI. 6 weeks later I received an offer of an earlier apponitment in 8 weeks if I could travel to the other side of London about 30 miles away. That is a minimum of 1 hours driving, one way, on a good day (2-3 hours by public transport).
The way the letter was written was as if they had exceeded themselves to get me in early. I only waited 10 months from my first GP appointment. I have yet to receive the recommended remedy. That is still a week and a half away.
Here in Canada the health care system is beyond a national ideology. It serves to reinforce those false feeling of superiority our cultural elites have over anything “American”. Sadly, they cannot acknowledge that the system is crumbling because that would be implicitly admitting that a free market model might provide better service than the socialized morass we are stuck with.
DrEngine
Wait. You’ve already started attacking a documentary that hasn’t even come out yet?
If I am reading this post correctly, he is not “attacking” the documentary, Lee is describing the problems of the Canadian healthcare system.
He is speculating that MM will use the Canadian healthcare system in his documentary as an example of how the US healthcare system should be run.
Yes, which is a speculation he can’t make until the film comes out. I say “attacking” because this whole site is kind of predicated on debunking everything Michael Moore says, which is fine, but wait until he says it. This is getting out in front of a film that hasn’t even been vetted yet. Although I’m sure it’s going to be a criticism of the American health care system. It may be better than Canada’s in the long run, but you can’t honestly sit here and deny that there aren’t problems with our system.
And by the way, genFX, I don’t have a problem with free speech, but this is a reaction to free speech that hasn’t been made yet, which means that you’ve made up your mind before you’ve even heard the argument. Say whatever you want, free speech all the way, but that’s KoolAid drinking 101.
It’s funny. Here in Cleveland, Ohio--which was declared “poorest metropolitan city in America"--we were [and still are] getting hundreds of Canadians coming in to visit the Cleveland Clinic each month (those Canadians that could afford it).
It always got me that Canadians (who could afford it) would travel from (as the Canadian political elite has spouted) the home of the utopian health care system flocked to the “poorest metropolitan city in America” for their medical treatment.
While Cleveland has, I believe, shook that title, we’re still not exactly the richest. And, for now, we still get Canadians coming here to get their medical treatment.
So when you Canadians start getting treatement at those new private places, poor Cleveland is going to lose revenue it can ill afford. =[
On behalf of Cleveland, I IMPLORE Canadians to fight this effort at privitization, and instead go across the border to Cleveland as you always have. Please, give *US* your money! We need it! So what if you spend weeks, months, and even years trying to get treatment! Your smug satisfaction fuels our local hospitals! PLEASE!
DrEngine - Once again you miss the point. Mickey started the next war by openly campaigning for people to be a part of his next documentary on Health care. Thus, we are already arming ourselves for his fight. So just because Mickey hasn’t said it doesn’t mean we should prepare ourselves for when he does…
I find it pretty pathetic that here in Illinois, our governor signed into action an illegal law a few months ago whereby citizens of our state could receive discount perscriptions from Canada. These are perscriptions that have not been approved by the FDA and are coming from a country that can’t even take care of its healthcare system, but it can try and sell their drugs without our country’s approval.
It’s true that the movie hasn’t come out yet; however, MM has already spoken publicly in many different venues about how much better the Canadian system is from the American. So why can’t Moorewatch go ahead and start discussing it? Why should they have to wait till the film actually hits the theaters? It’s an important and very discussable issue.
Ahh but the magic of Canadian health care is that no one has to pay for it. Ever. When it doesn’t cost anything, posthumous radiation therapy makes a lot more sense.
And by the way, genFX, I don’t have a problem with free speech, but this is a reaction to free speech that hasn’t been made yet, which means that you’ve made up your mind before you’ve even heard the argument. Say whatever you want, free speech all the way, but that’s KoolAid drinking 101.
By your very answer you do indeed have an issue with contrary speech. People can make whatever statements they like and given Moore’s deep love of Canada, Lee made a fairly valid bit of conjecture.
I will note that you did not actually defend Moore, but rather attacked Lee for even predictign what MM might do.
Enjoy the koolaid.
You’re right, I didn’t defend Moore. BECAUSE THE FILM HASN’T COME OUT YET. (Wait, is that screaming? All caps? Not intended to be a scream)
Doesn’t Canada have a system where citizens can opt for better, private healthcare, but there’s a safety net installed for people who can’t afford healthcare? Obviously, we object to this system because it spells higher taxes, but I guess it all depends on what you think the primary goal of gov’t is. To provide for its people in all aspects, or simply to protect its people.
I kind of like a system, where you can opt for premium care if you can afford it, but there are services to cover everybody.
And by the way, Canada is a developed country. I love the egocentric rationalization that we can’t accept Canadian drugs because it’s not American approved drugs, like Canadians are mixing the drugs in a giant bowl of rats’ bones and dancing around the pot for the gods to bless. They’re not aborigines for God’s sake, they’re fat white people, like us, only they pay higher taxes, and have an ungodly fondness for freezing cold weather.
DrEngine....
Actually you are not allowed to opt for better and/or private health care in Canada. The only way to access private care is to travel outside of Canada. There is not much the Canadian government can do to its citizens in someone else’s country, however they will exert their authority to prevent private health care on Canadian soil (and they seem to be more anxious to exert that authority against Alberta than Quebec, however another topic for another board).
The analogy often cited is to compare to a transportation system. If everyone is forced to use public transit then the quality of buses should be improved. To sustain this misguided notion no one is allowed to call a taxi or own a car.
I agree with DrEngine. He’s got a point. Unless Lee is all of a sudden Michael Moore’s best friend, I doubt he knows what sort of things he exactly has in his documentary. Also the last few films that Michael Moore has made and used the Canadians as an example in, were good examples. Bowling for Columbine showed that the Canadians were better off when it came to guns and people feeling safer than the people here in America. In otherwords, Mr. Moore uses the Canadians as good examples.
I know this may be off topic but I was just wondering something. I am still at an age where I can change my opinion easily and I was wondering if I should consider myself a Republican or a Democrat. If you have a reply let me know why I should choose one over the other.
DrEngine - Since you seem to be completely missing the point of Jim’s original post, I will put this into the simplest terms possible:
Does a baseball pitcher go out and pitch a game with out preparing and practicing? No.
Do musicians play an instrument in a recital without practicing? No.
Does a general go into battle without a battle plan? No.
Does Michael Moore go to a buffet without first going through his checklist of other buffets he has eaten at today? No.
Thus, PREPERATION is the point of Jim’s posting this prior to Mickey’s documentary coming out. He is informing of us possible issues Mickey might bring-up and is arming the guns before we fire them.
Now do you get it? Or are you trully a clueless troll just looking for an argument to defend Mickey’s cause?
Wow. It’s worse than I thought.
Once Sicko comes out, nail them with the fact about dog hip replacement. That pretty much says it all right there.
Even in Bowling for Columbine Moore was pushing the Canadian healthcare system. My friend swallowed it all up as if their healthcare was some kind of free utopia, where no problems exist. The film Sicko will probably push this even farther to the point of hyperbole.
Sicko had better tank. I’m thinking it will. The one thing keeping it from tanking will be devoted libral nutjobs, and well funded promotions. Evil corporations will need to promote Sicko in order for it to take them down. Heh.
leemj, if you don’t firmly believe in one party, go independant.
does anyone have what the wait times are for the u.s.?
My wife just scheduled a MRI for our daughter. 2 weeks!
The delay was because we wanted certain days.We wanted a Monday or a Friday because she has to be put under.
If anyone is interested, Walter E. Williams wrote two excellent commentaries on the Canadian health care system:
Both are excellent reads and quite informative.
Ferdy, thanks for the info on the Candadian system. Yeah, that’s not gonna work. If anything, there needs to be some sort of compromise. Have public and private healthcare. Good analogy with the public transportation. Public anything is never a great thing, but at least the transportation is there. Like the wisdom behind “beggars can’t be choosers?” Crappy healthcare is better than zero healthcare for those who can’t afford it, or work for companies that refuse to provide it. Meanwhile, private healthcare is there for those who have the means to pay for it.
MostlyRebubman: “Arming your guns before you fire them” sounds like you’re not even up for the possibility that you might agree with the film. But I’m the clueless troll?
And as far as defending MM. I don’t know about that. I liked the general hypothesis behind Bowling for Columbine, but I didn’t even see F9/11, so I can’t judge. That’s how it works. I can’t judge a film until I’ve seen it. I think MM believes in a quasi-socialistic system, like Canada, and I see huge problems with that model on the US, for one reason, the sheer size of our population. But there’s a certain level of vitriol about MM for simply (from where I’m standing) criticizing certain aspects of American life, which is supposed to be good for a society.
Repubman: Answer me this question: Do you think MM is “Anti-American?”
Yes, which is a speculation he can’t make until the film comes out.
... that’s what speculation is…
Ohhh Ohhh I wanna answer this one it’s too easy.
Answer me this question: Do you think MM is “Anti-American?”
Yes. And before you go crazy with criticizing gov’t is the idea of americanism that isn’t why I think he is anti-american.
I think Moore is anti-american because he calls us the dumbest group of people on the earth, because he says our enemies are the good guys, because he openly criticizes our way of life while enjoying the spoils of it, because he doesn’t support america simply because it is america, because his love of other countries has led him to believe we are not a good place to live.
I agree with him criticizing the gov’t. I may not agree with what he says but I like that he speaks out. However, what he says when his mouth is open or his fingers are typing, makes me wish his right to speak was taken away.
He says Americans are stupid because we say stupid stuff, like “Saddam attacked us on 9/11” (remember that poll that showed half the country still believed that line at the time of the election.) And he also thinks it was stupid of us to re-elect Bush. That’s not anti-American; it’s anti-Bush, a difference that not a lot of right wing people like Sean Hannity seem able to decipher. He thinks we’re stupid because we buy into lip service and empty rhetoric a lot of the time (like: “they hate us for our freedom); we trust politicians who say one thing and then do another (on both sides of the aisle). And saying our enemies are the good guys: if you’re talking about the Minuteman remark, he was saying that those guys over there BELIEVE that they are the good guys, they believe that they’re living in an occupied country, the way WE believed that we were being oppressed by the British. So they’re going to fight for their independence as freedom fighters. You may not agree with that, but that’s what they believe. What army or nation, or group of people are going to acknowledge that they’re the bad guys? Who walks around saying “I’m the bad guy and I have to go blow up some good guys.” On our side, we believe WE’RE the good guys. Who is right, is a matter of what side you happen to be on. We revere the Minutemen, as we should, but what MM was saying was they think of themselves as the Minutemen of their nation and their time in history.
And why should someone “support America, simply because it is America?” That’s blind loyalty. By that rationale, we’d never disagree with any action (military or otherwise) that America takes.
And the proof is in the pudding as far as living in other countries. He’s still here. He uses other countries to perhaps model after because he thinks they get certain things right where we don’t (like corporate greed, gun violence, when to go to war, and healthcare).
That doesn’t make him anti-American.
I’ve typed too much. I’ll let others weigh in. Maybe I’ll become convinced.
if you’re talking about the Minuteman remark, he was saying that those guys over there BELIEVE that they are the good guys, they believe that they’re living in an occupied country
Now, who is the one speculating?
And he also thinks it was stupid of us to re-elect Bush.
But it was the American peoples’ choice. He cannot accept that there are so many people who disagree with him. He makes statements to the effect of, “these people are ignorant of the truth”. And then he tries to present himself as a purveyor of the truth, with his half-truths and one-sided, misleading documentaries. One who cannot accept that the American people have made their choice, and tries to write off these people as somehow not having access to the proper information (his information)is somebody who needs to reassess his view of the American people. Criticize the president or congress for policy decisions that you don’t agree with, that is part of a free society, but you also have to accept that not everybody is going to agree with you. That does not make them ignorant or stupid. Michael Moore talking about his fellow countrymen in this way can be construed as Anti-American.
WE believed that we were being oppressed by the British.
No, we were British Citizens who were educated enough to realize we weren’t being allowed our full rights as Englishmen. WE knew our rights were being taken away because we did not have a say in parliament to decide whether laws passed for the colonies were fair or not.
There is a distinct difference between what the colonists stood for in the revolution and what the terrorists in Iraq stand for. Can you honestly make a rational comparison between what these fanatics in Al qaeda want for the world or for Islam and what the colonists desired for themselves. The comparison, if that was Moore’s intention is disingenuous because it assumes that the people willing to kill and target thousands of civilians, (the primary target of terrorists) are interested in freedom.
On our side, we believe WE’RE the good guys. Who is right, is a matter of what side you happen to be on. We revere the Minutemen, as we should, but what MM was saying was they think of themselves as the Minutemen of their nation and their time in history.
What is the natural state of man? I would venture that freedom is the natural state of man and that people who are intent on imposing a strict, fascist religious theocracy are not interested in freedom. I would venture a guess that they would not allow freedom of the press, free speech or freedom of religion. We are quite well aware of the nature of our enemies, as we have seen and heard from the enemy themselves what they want to achieve. They may see their targeting and killing of civilians as just and right, but that is from a world view that is interested in imposing a totalitarian regime upon humanity. I think, whatever they believe of themselves, we can safely say that they are interested in imposing an evil and oppressive way of live on evrything they see. Moral relativism is part of that wonderful concept of appeasment, and I would hope that the elected leaders of the west are interested in making a stand between right and wrong. Moore is apologising for them in much the same way that you are. There is no apology for these terrorists, and yes, they do hate our decadent society.
“Saddam attacked us on 9/11” (remember that poll that showed half the country still believed that line at the time of the election.)
Why is this necessarily so stupid to believe, that he had some contact with the terrorists, it is not beyond the realm of possibilities, since he had tried to arrange the assasssination of a political leader in the US, and one of his agents reportedly ment with Mohammed Atta in Prague, if I’m not mistaken. But there is too much that is unknown in the run up to that attack, and it is much more fallacious to lock out any possibility of ties.
And why should someone “support America, simply because it is America?” That’s blind loyalty. By that rationale, we’d never disagree with any action (military or otherwise) that America takes.
Is that a quote from anybody in particular? Do you believe that most people in America would like to beklieve that their country and its soliers stand for something good in the world? Isn’t it fair to expect that people could support the troops by believing that they are in Iraq to achieve something good for the Iraqi people?
If you want to portray the previous regime in a positive light and say that they were better off not having the possibility to express their will through free elections and press, that is your perogitive, as it is Michael Moore’s. But when the persobn in question goes out in public with his statments and assertions, then he needs to be prepared to have his atatements put under scrutiny. This is the Purpose of Moorewatch. He want’s to compare the US unfavorably to othe countries, he has to be prepared for people to look at his assertions and pic them apart.
Moore has been trying to get together material for his new “documentary”, and Lee is speculating using Moore’s previous record as a guidline. That is a very common thing to do. And since Moore has been trying to play up the new “documentary”, he has to be able to accept that there are those who look upon his efforts with a healthy amount of scepticism.
I don’t think anyone in Canada believes that we have an Utopian medical system. We recognize that the system is under extreme stress, and we ain’t exactly sure how to fix it. Except throw more money at it…
I have a question about health care in the US. Most of these threads degenerate into discussions about how Americans never get turned away for emergency treatment, which is all well and good.
I haven’t seen anything about regular care, IE Johnny has a fever of 101, and probably should see a doctor, but it isn’t thought to be life threatening. Does he get to see the doctor before someone says “Will that be cash or VISA?”.
If the answer is yes, but after the fact Johnny’s mom can’t afford to pay the bill, what happens next?
Incidentally, if Moore uses the Canadian system in his movie as a shining example, he is clearly crazy. If he cites the idea of how Canadians would like it to work, that would be a different story.
Oh, and maybe after his movie comes out, you guys could all get together and produce a documentary called “Sicko, Eh?” about the Canadian system. Unfortunately, I don’t think you will find as many (even proportionally) ‘horror’ stories as MM will find. I’m sure both our systems have their stories to tell…
The problem with ‘documentaries’ like this is that the guy that makes them gets to cherry pick his stories. There is no balance…
Oh, and maybe after his movie comes out, you guys could all get together and produce a documentary called “Sicko, Eh?” about the Canadian system. Unfortunately, I don’t think you will find as many (even proportionally) ‘horror’ stories as MM will find. I’m sure both our systems have their stories to tell…
There is a documentary coming out about the Canadian Health Care system. Also, someone posted two articles about the Canadian Health system, and here’s another:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa532.pdf
DrEngine - The more you speak, the more your efforts are refuted. I am not going to respond anymore to your efforts as they do not hold much water and are only a waste of my time. However, unlike Leftists sites that take you off of your site for disagreeing with their views, you are entitled to spout off as much nonsense here as you would.
By the way, on the comment of Mickey being Anti-American, when I actually hear him say publicly some nice things about the United States, I will actually believe that he is pro-american. But since all he can ever do is make documentaries that extoll the faults of America, I will continue to believe he is Anti-American.
ebrooks54, I think in the case of Johnny with the fever, the nurses take him in for an immediate preliminary exam, ie blood pressure, temperature, breathe in, breathe out...etc. Then he’s sent back out into the waiting room, while they process his other information (probably through his mother) They’ll ask if he has insurance. If no, they bill the mother and she can pay however she wants. Johnny will evenually get seen at the hospital. Than about a month later, Johnny’s mom gets the bill and she has to make payments or arrange something. If she can’t afford it, usually the hopital will accept small installments, I’ve heard sometimes they’ll go as low as $10 a month. If she ignores the bill, it goes into collection like a credit card would. This is one of the reasons why medical costs are so high, all the tort. That’s about all I know, and I do speak with some experience. I grew up my whole life without health insurance. But perhaps someone in the medical field would give you a different perspective.
Mostly Repubman: that’s fine if you want to ignore me. I’m not sure what you mean by “my efforts,” but ok. You do have a valid point, though, MM doesn’t say many nice things about America. But the ommission of praise isn’t exactly a sign of Anti-Americanism. I don’t praise America, or salute the flag, does that make me Anti-American? I wouldn’t consider myself anti-American. But whatever, you don’t want to be my friend, I’ll get over it somehow.
Camkrisand: Thanks for the post. Food for thought. But as far as Revolutionary War comparisons, I don’t think it matters if you or I don’t see the comparison (and by the way, I’m not talking about terrorists like the ones on 9-11, I’m talking about Iraqi-born insurgents) all that matters is that the insurgents must see themselves as freeing their people from invaders. As far as we know, Bush has promised that we’re not going to be there forever, and I have no reason not to believe him so far. But the average Iraqi citizen might be looking at year 3 of the occupation, and the fact that there are some American contractors already at work in the new Iraq (such as Halliburton) and think to themselves: I don’t think these crackers are leaving! So their local organizers are convincing them that this is a long-term occupation, and now they’re starting to flex some muscle to push us out. I think this is the fundamental problem whenever you invade any country. Inevitably you have people who don’t like it, and all they need to do is last one day longer than the occupiers. The Irish did it, the Indians did it, we did it. It’s the home-field advantage syndrome. I don’t need to make comparisons to the Revolutionary War, THEY do, and that’s all that matters. And the real kick in the nuts is that when we do eventually pull out,(which Bush says he intends to do) the Iraqi leaders will spin this as a victory for their insurgency which will embolden the Islamo-fascist movement. It’s really a damned if we do, damned if we don’t scenario. MM’s statement about the Minutemen was putting the situation into terms we’d understand.
As far as picking apart MM’s arguments; obviously there’s no problem with that. I just think we ought to be fair when it comes to the language we use, such as: “He’s Anti-American.” That was my real concern, is he anti-American?
But the average Iraqi citizen might be looking at year 3 of the occupation, and the fact that there are some American contractors already at work in the new Iraq (such as Halliburton) and think to themselves: I don’t think these crackers are leaving!
Or they might be thankfull there are people there to help them set up an infrastructure. There is always two sides to that, and we do not get that from the MSM or MM
I don’t think it matters if you or I don’t see the comparison (and by the way, I’m not talking about terrorists like the ones on 9-11, I’m talking about Iraqi-born insurgents) all that matters is that the insurgents must see themselves as freeing their people from invaders.
Again, I would challenge that assertion based on the fact that there are many foreign born insugents. They are there to break the power of the US for a political gain, but if you look at more than MM’s reporting, you would find that the native born Iraqis are not too fond of their so called “liberators”, only the die hard Baathists and ISlamists are the ones who continue in this fight. I would Call into question their comparison, (OIne they did not make, but Moore and Sheehan’s mother) to their capacity as freedom fighters, since the minute men were interested in winning the public to their side and not blowuing up innocent civilians with a will.
MM’s statement about the Minutemen was putting the situation into terms we’d understand.
I think most people understand this situation if they get all the information, they don’t need it spelled out by a college dropout with little understanding of islam, terrorism or international politics. But MM’s statement leaves little room for interpretation. He can’t have it both ways. If he supports the troops it is not really politic to go calling their adversaries anything other than what they are, terrorists. They target civilians to spread terror. They may think they are freeing their county from a foriegn occupier, (Rather odd reasoning for a north african Al-qaeda member) but they do not intend to let the Iraqi people decide for themselves how they want to run their country. That is an essential for freedom, you cannot color it any other way, and I don’t believe the Iraqis, from what I read in blogs, like these foreign fighters destabilising their country, they want to get on with their lives, without the help of MM’s freedom fighers.
And yes, I will term MM as Anti-American, because he repeadedly has been quoted saying as such. The very concepts and bases for his fame and wealth are the things he wants to attack and tear down, as long as it does not apply to him. He embraces dictators who would have anyone who criticised the authorities as much as he does thrown into prison and executed, while spouting anti-american filth. The record speaks for itself.
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Wait. You’ve already started attacking a documentary that hasn’t even come out yet?