Well JimK can just ask Moore to debate this issue.  Since we all know Mike is on the up and up and has plenty of time to take debate challenges we can get this whole thing worked out in no time.

You hit the nail on the head Lee. The thing that all the Moore defenders are failing to recognize is that Moore is the one who outed his supposedly “no strings attached” “gesture of kindness”. Moore is the one exploiting this. You guys are only talking about it because it’s in the freakin’ movie!

I’d think that if Moore had wanted to tell Jim that he gave the money, but keep it quiet, Jim would have honored those wishes. I certainly don’t think he would be up here saying the things he’s saying about it.

As it stands, Jim has every right to be furious with Moore for this whole thing.

I’m sure all the people who came here asking, “why all the hate,” will now e-mail Dagon to ask him/her/it the same question.  Dagon’s inbox will soon be overflowing with polite dissent from Moore’s thinkers and gestures of love to vaccinate against the hate.

I’ve got my hipboots on, if you couldn’t tell.

As it stands, Jim has every right to be furious with Moore for this whole thing.

Absolutely true.

What I don’t understand—maybe I’m just slow—is why so many Moore-ons seem to think JimK has violated some sacred principle by accepting or keeping the money.

Posted by Buzz on 05/20 at 01:12 PM (Link to this comment)

“What I don’t understand—maybe I’m just slow—is why so many Moore-ons seem to think JimK has violated some sacred principle by accepting or keeping the money.”

Actually, if he could get $12k he should donate it to some group like ‘the fire’ to protect free speech from moore fan types…

That and he could turn Moore’s argument around.

Moore: Everyone needs a little help (from the state). See?
JimK: Your gift enabled me to have more dispobable income (which I then donated to a free speech group). Like happens most of the time with state assistance (which often hurts people more than it helps by breeding entitlement and dependence). Well, you’ll be happy to know it didn’t happen with me. Thanks for the gift. The Fire can really use it. PS Mike, turning the US healthcare system into one big HMO.. thats not really progress. We need some new thinking on healthcare. But, your thoughts are the same old stale failed socialism. Cheers.

I realize that nothing I write here will have any effect on anyone that reads it, whatsoever.  For everyone that agrees with me, they’ll still agree with me.  And for all of Jim’s followers, well, they’ll just write a rebuttal talking about how much of a “Moore-on” I am, how I can’t read, or some other type of juvenile personal attack with no backing.  But wow, are you really surprised to see anti-American sentiment throughout the world?  We’ve waged a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, a nation without weapons of mass destruction, and the death toll for this conflict is nearing 1 million for all involved.  We’ve racked up the biggest deficit since the Great Depression.  Our tourists are snobby and privileged.  And our nation has become a haven for hate organizations, such as the Westboro Baptist Church, a rising KKK, and this website.  I’m all for freedom of speech, but we must be held accountable for the words that come out of our mouths and our actions.  I’m not being anti-American, unpatriotic, a Moore-on, or whatever Sean Hannity would be dying to scream at me right now.  I’m being honest.

I realize that nothing I write here will have any effect on anyone that reads it, whatsoever.  For everyone that agrees with me, they’ll still agree with me.  And for all of Jim’s followers, well, they’ll just write a rebuttal talking about how much of a “Moore-on” I am, how I can’t read, or some other type of juvenile personal attack with no backing.  But wow, are you really surprised to see anti-American sentiment throughout the world?  We’ve waged a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, a nation without weapons of mass destruction, and the death toll for this conflict is nearing 1 million for all involved.  We’ve racked up the biggest deficit since the Great Depression.  Our tourists are snobby and privileged.  And our nation has become a haven for hate organizations, such as the Westboro Baptist Church, a rising KKK, and this website.  I’m all for freedom of speech, but we must be held accountable for the words that come out of our mouths and our actions.  I’m not being anti-American, unpatriotic, a Moore-on, or whatever Sean Hannity would be dying to scream at me right now.  I’m being honest.

So basically you’re using the net like most people and saying “America=bad”. Good for you. Oh wait,...you’re also saying that Moorewatch=bad too. I thought with some one who obviously has a huge critical eye on America would be able to appreciate a website that has a critical eye on a yellow journalist, deceptive film maker who makes money off of controversy. This isn’t a hate site and you’re off topic as well. And we’ve all seen little speeches about how bad America is on the net a million times. It’s not our fault so many countries in the world critique America instead of looking into their own problems. Thanks for the adding to the pile of bullshit though, it was really insightful.

Despite it being absolutely ridiculous comparing this website to the WBC or the KKK, you still have to explain how each of these organizations, consisting of maybe 50 people, means the country is a “haven” for hate organizations.

brettalbert,

So lets see an anti-Bush, anti-Republican, anti-Sean Hannity website etc. that distorts facts or is critical of America would not be a hate site in your opinion? Its only people who hate things that you agree with that are the hate mongers. Gotcha!

You are not being honest, jerk. You don’t give a damn about Free Speech do you? As long as you agree with it, its fine, if you don’t, its HATE.

And our nation has become a haven for hate organizations

I guess you don’t get out much do you?

On the one hand, you could almost feel sorry for Dagon being so delusional with hatred.

On the other hand, he’s dutch.  Fuck ‘em.

I passed through the Amsterdam airport a couple of years ago, and I didn’t notice any Dutch people lurking in the corners waiting to pounce on me and beat me up. Maybe it’s just him waiting to do that. Or maybe he’s just living proof that it’s bad to smoke too much weed, even if it is legal.

brettalbert,

Thank you for your one-sided critique of America.  Now prove you aren’t biased and tell us what’s right with this country . . . or do you think about that at all?

I’m being serious here . . . I don’t understand this incessant need to harp on all of our faults especially the ones that come with the territory and are hardly worth mentioning . . . like these: 

1) That our tourists are snobby and privileged is hardly my idea of a national crisis.  I was sort of under the impression that being an asshole is one of our inalienable rights.  Lord knows Michael Moore excercises that right.

2) That the KKK still exists in some diminished form in this country is not surprising, unexpected, or preventable.  I was sorta under the impression that being an asshole is one of our inalienable rights.  What do you propose we do to eliminate the KKK?  Lynch ‘em all?  There are still Nazi supporters in Germany, you know.  I don’t hear you condemning them.

3) Do the idiots at the Westboro Baptist Church really concern you that much?  I mean other than getting publicity how much political clout do they have . . . especially since the evil George Bush signed an act barring them from disrupting military funerals. 

Now, if I wanted to do a “Michael Moore” on you, I would ask you a loaded question:  Are you aware that church held fundraisers for the Gore campaign that Al Gore actually attended?  That’s a fact . . . just like one of MM’s facts.  But, I’m not going to play that game because I’m don’t believe for a minute Gore endorses that church.  But you . . . you seem to think there are regulars here on MooreWatch that subscribe to this kind of nonsense when in fact, there are people here who defend gay rights.  You assume a lot.

4) You ask if we are really surprised to see anti-American sentiment throughout the world?  How long have been around?  Were you born yesterday?  For decades people around the world have been taught to detest this country.  It’s nothing new.  The Michael Moore’s of this country aren’t doing a damn thing to help either.  And neither are you.

Some of your points might actually have merit, but since you’ve put me in such a negative mood, I’m not going to respond those points.

I will, however, point out that while you accuse people here of juvenile personal attacks with no backing, you yourself engage in one of the most mindless juvenile accuations imaginable when you associate this site with the KKK and such.  Good god, man, have you no self-respect?  Are you so biased that you can’t bother to seek simple truths?  Or do you have some sort of dysfuntional need to have enemies to make yourself more righteous?

Wow, what an interesting bunch of “regulars”.  I find it quite hilarious that you people hate Moore so much, yet you give him all this free publicity by putting everything he does under a microscope & then trying to stir up controversy about it.  Ever heard the phrase, “no publicity is bad publicity”?  Yes.. it applies here.

As for the content of Moore’s films, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that he’s only showing you part of the story (the part needed to support his conclusion).  The mainstream media does the same thing, every single day.  Why aren’t you launching a crusade against the general methodology used by the media to “shock” us, and make stories more interesting?  They paint their pictures in the same way Moore paints his; however, they have hours of people’s attention every day, as opposed to two hours every couple years.

Moore is a very small part of a very large problem, and quite frankly, I thought he was so obvious about it that people could just apply a little common sense when deciding what to takeaway from one of his films (as opposed to creating a website dedicated to talking about him & ultimately generating interest in the very problem you claim to be fighting against).

Look… I probably believe the opposite of most of you, but I will say that, should Moore overplay his hand in using his philanthropy to his benefit, that can’t be defended.  You help someone in need whether or not you agree with their views.  I hope all is well Mr. Kenefick.

As for the numbnut from the Netherlands.. well.. I can’t say he/she has much in common with mainstream liberals or Moore fans.  He/she is just a moron (regular spelling).

Disagreeing with policy doesn’t make anyone an America-hater.. I’m sure most of you hated and disagreed with Clinton.  However, speaking with glee about a nuclear weapon going off does.  I hope we can recognize the difference.

Posted by deepb on 05/20 at 09:51 PM

Wow, what an interesting bunch of “regulars”.  I find it quite hilarious that you people hate Moore so much, yet you give him all this free publicity by putting everything he does under a microscope & then trying to stir up controversy about it.  Ever heard the phrase, “no publicity is bad publicity”?  Yes.. it applies here.

That’s about the worst excuse I’ve ever heard for letting somebody get away with mass deception.

As for the content of Moore’s films, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that he’s only showing you part of the story (the part needed to support his conclusion).  The mainstream media does the same thing, every single day.  Why aren’t you launching a crusade against the general methodology used by the media to “shock” us, and make stories more interesting?  They paint their pictures in the same way Moore paints his; however, they have hours of people’s attention every day, as opposed to two hours every couple years.

There are sites dedicated to criticism of the media.  This isn’t one of them, but in the forums we bring it up from time to time.  How about you let us criticize what we want, and you start another media-critique website.  Be sure to invite us when you do.

Moore is a very small part of a very large problem, and quite frankly, I thought he was so obvious about it that people could just apply a little common sense when deciding what to takeaway from one of his films (as opposed to creating a website dedicated to talking about him & ultimately generating interest in the very problem you claim to be fighting against).

I would have thought so too, but as evidenced by his legions of fans, especially demonstrated on this site in the last 48 hours, that is clearly incorrect.  Many people think Moore is doing nothing but speaking “truth to power”, to quote one of the most overused activist lines.

I appreciate your comments teeps.

As for the content of Moore’s films, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that he’s only showing you part of the story (the part needed to support his conclusion).

Well, given the number of people who take both Moore and the Media as gospel, it takes more than they can muster to find the light.  Apparently, you have.

But this is MooreWatch, not MediaWatch.  And Moore is a bigger problem than you think as evidenced by the following he has.

Posted by brettalbert on 05/20 at 02:44 PM (Link to this comment)

“I’m all for freedom of speech, but we must be held accountable for the words that come out of our mouths and our actions.  I’m not being anti-American, unpatriotic, a Moore-on, or whatever Sean Hannity would be dying to scream at me right now.  I’m being honest.”

Fascist.

Posted by deepb on 05/20 at 07:51 PM (Link to this comment)

“Wow, what an interesting bunch of “regulars”.  I find it quite hilarious that you people hate Moore so much, yet you give him all this free publicity by putting everything he does under a microscope”

Wow, what an interesting bunch of trolls. Assuming dissent equals hate. Dare I say it? Projection. There… I said it.

Most of you guys are obviously the haters. Listen to yourselves.

Mike catches a under the belt fat joke here and there. Doesn’t mean we hate him. Happily, I think 95% of the stuff going on here is about the facts and countering his arguments… heck, that’s what he claims to want to do. Encourage a discussion…

Posted by Teeps on 05/21 at 12:01 AM (Link to this comment)

Look… I probably believe the opposite of most of you, but I will say that, should Moore overplay his hand in using his philanthropy to his benefit, that can’t be defended.  You help someone in need whether or not you agree with their views.

Exactly, Teeps. This isn’t a left/right thing, or an american/non-american thing. It’s a right/wrong thing.

Adults should be able to point out when someone is behaving poorly, regardless of whether it means criticizing a person they may agree with on other issues or siding with people they may disagree with on other issues.

And our nation has become a haven for hate organizations, such as the Westboro Baptist Church, a rising KKK, and this website.

the comparison between moorewatch and the kkk really is laughable.

...westboro babtist church ??? how the hell does that organisation have anything to do with moorewatch ???

That’s made my day, I reckon the guy who fronts that church is one of the best comedians in the world, he just doesn’t know it yet.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that Michael Moore anonymously gave Jim that money not to help him, but to create a credibility issue that people could use to pounce on Jim with, effectively silencing his criticisms of Moore?  I mean, after this whole episode, I can’t help but feel depressed.  It’s not only stupid people falling for Moore’s B.S., it’s smart people too.

I suppose it is just more evidence that you shouldn’t overestimate the intelligence of the general public, here in the U.S. or around the globe.  Or, at the very least, Michael Moore fans as a whole.

Oh, and those who come here not only to defend Moore, but to change the subject away from Moore to obscure the issue at hand?  They’re dumber still.

High German language is extremely dry, clunky and stiff, which is why I believe Germany has so many different dialects that more or less shave the corners off and streamline palin old dialogue. The results vary, but to my ears what the Dutch did with it sounds flat-out gruesome, phonetically.

Why do all of you idiots think by using names like “Moore-ons” gets your point across, unless, perhaps, your target audiences also like to eat paste and pee their pants?  Answer me this, you haters.  Moore tells the truth, and you’re all just too chicken shit to make your own movie with your perception of the truth.  Instead you “watch” someone who’s way more successful than you, way fatter than you, and much more popular than you live his life.  Your mothers must be so proud of your namecalling and stalking.  Good job, idiots!

Two words: Bushitler.

Why do all of you idiots think by using names like “Moore-ons” gets your point across, unless, perhaps, your target audiences also like to eat paste and pee their pants?  Answer me this, you haters.  Moore tells the truth, and you’re all just too chicken shit to make your own movie with your perception of the truth.  Instead you “watch” someone who’s way more successful than you, way fatter than you, and much more popular than you live his life.  Your mothers must be so proud of your namecalling and stalking.  Good job, idiots!

We must have touched a nerve because this Moore-on felt it necessary to really disappoint his mother.

I’m still not entirely sure what it is we’re supposed to answer?

Your mothers must be so proud of your namecalling and stalking.  Good job, idiots!

... And not a single hint of irony in the whole thing…

Well, actually, there have been a few films made with our perception of the truth. I saw one called “Michael Moore Hates America” that was really good. You should check that one out.

That’s about the worst excuse I’ve ever heard for letting somebody get away with mass deception.

You don’t seem to understand.  Moore is going to “get away” with what you call “mass deception”, regardless of what you do. 

The only real purpose this site serves is to generate controversy (i.e., publicity) for Moore.  When a newspaper article is written about him, they can reference this site as evidence that Moore is “controversial”. The general public loves controversy.  See the connection?

Remember the kid in elementary school who acted-up just to get attention?  Remember the best way to deal with kids like that?  No, it wasn’t to get together and tell everyone how bad he/she was, because that would just encourage additional bad behavior.  If you said, “ignore the kid”, you would be correct.

yeah that’s it don’t counter lies with facts and the truth just let them keep saying what they want.

What a stupid argument.

"brettalbert,

Thank you for your one-sided critique of America.  Now prove you aren’t biased and tell us what’s right with this country . . . or do you think about that at all? “

Seriously, I may dislike Sean Hannity, but I won’t ever deny that he’s a genius.  He’s programmed every anti-liberal in America to respond to any criticism of America with “you hate America” or “I’m a good American, so I won’t even respond to that.” Beautiful.

What do I love about this country?  I love the freedom of speech, as I’ve already stated before.  Freedom of speech doesn’t give us a free pass to base entire websites of hate against one human being.  How do I feel about websites like sweetjesuseihatebilloreilly.com?  I also find fault with them, considering they are singling out one individual when most of their arguments are against that individual’s entire belief system or party. 

I love the freedom of religion, but I also appreciate that my right to Christianity doesn’t entitle me to run my mouth on “condemned people” without facing consequences.

I made the comparison between hate organizations, such as the KKK, WBC, and this website, because I believe it’s important to realize that hate goes beyond gays and straights and blacks and whites, but that hate also exists just as strongly between opposing political parties.  I also brought up the strong haven for hate organizations to show a particular reason why foreigners hate America.

I don’t hate America.  I love America like a husband loves his wife.  He loves her with all his heart, yet he’s not blind to her faults and shortcomings, and is always striving to support and provide for her. 

And lastly, which anti-Moore guy said that the KKK had 50 people in it?  The Klan’s current numbers are nearing 4000, and are increasingly steadily in Pennsylvania, which is where I live.  Good call.

Posted by deepb on 05/21 at 04:45 PM

That’s about the worst excuse I’ve ever heard for letting somebody get away with mass deception.

You don’t seem to understand.  Moore is going to “get away” with what you call “mass deception”, regardless of what you do.

Perhaps, but my instinct isn’t to just let it go.  Despite what you say below, challenging him can’t be worse than leaving him unchallenged.

The only real purpose this site serves is to generate controversy (i.e., publicity) for Moore.  When a newspaper article is written about him, they can reference this site as evidence that Moore is “controversial”. The general public loves controversy.  See the connection?

Remember the kid in elementary school who acted-up just to get attention?  Remember the best way to deal with kids like that?  No, it wasn’t to get together and tell everyone how bad he/she was, because that would just encourage additional bad behavior.  If you said, “ignore the kid”, you would be correct.

Except that Moore isn’t just some kid trying to get attention.  He creates movies claiming absolute truth while relying on underhanded tactics and deception.  It’s not as if he’ll stop doing that if nobody challenges him and everybody comes to believe him.  I understand very well, thank you.

Posted by brettalbert on 05/21 at 05:10 PM

What do I love about this country?  I love the freedom of speech, as I’ve already stated before.  Freedom of speech doesn’t give us a free pass to base entire websites of hate against one human being.  How do I feel about websites like sweetjesuseihatebilloreilly.com?  I also find fault with them, considering they are singling out one individual when most of their arguments are against that individual’s entire belief system or party. 

I love the freedom of religion, but I also appreciate that my right to Christianity doesn’t entitle me to run my mouth on “condemned people” without facing consequences.

I made the comparison between hate organizations, such as the KKK, WBC, and this website, because I believe it’s important to realize that hate goes beyond gays and straights and blacks and whites, but that hate also exists just as strongly between opposing political parties.

It was just a cheap shot to villify a site you disagree with.  If you’re really concerned about political hatred, I know of a few left-wing sites you really need to go preach to.

I also brought up the strong haven for hate organizations to show a particular reason why foreigners hate America.

I’m challenging your claim of a “strong haven” for hate.  Most of the hate organizations here are small, keep quiet most of the time, and are usually outnumbered by counter-protestors when they do actually march.  Important parts of our nation’s foundation are the freedoms of speech and assembly.  I don’t know what you propose be done about the hate groups that aren’t breaking laws.

Besides, if foreigners “hate” the U.S. because of the presence of some hate groups, besides being hypocritical they’re not going to find many places in the world to go.  That claim doesn’t make sense.

I don’t hate America.  I love America like a husband loves his wife.  He loves her with all his heart, yet he’s not blind to her faults and shortcomings, and is always striving to support and provide for her. 

And lastly, which anti-Moore guy said that the KKK had 50 people in it?  The Klan’s current numbers are nearing 4000, and are increasingly steadily in Pennsylvania, which is where I live.  Good call.

I’ll admit that’s bigger than I expected.  That speaks to how small their influence is.  How how many are in a given chapter or at a particular march?  Are they still outnumbered by counter-protestors?  Are they welcomed by society?  If they’re not welcomed by society, I’d have a hard time claiming this is a “haven of hate”.  I’m just not going to accept your hyperbole.

What do I love about this country?  I love the freedom of speech, as I’ve already stated before.  Freedom of speech doesn’t give us a free pass to base entire websites of hate against one human being.

Actually it does give exactly that kind of free pass.  If someone wants to be hateful, they are allowed to be hateful (at least for now).  Remember, popular speech never really needed protecting, it is the unpopular speech - the speech that we really, really don’t like - that needs protecting.  For once we say that certain kinds of speech are no longer protected and should be restricted, then where does that stop?  Or does it?  There will always be a majority of people that want some kind of speech silenced for some reason (the popular one lately is that the speech is found offensive by some minority group), but what happens when the majority changes its collective mind?

I love the freedom of religion, but I also appreciate that my right to Christianity doesn’t entitle me to run my mouth on “condemned people” without facing consequences.

Freedom of religion does not entitle you to “run your mouth”, but the aforementioned Freedom of Speech does.  You are correct though, that the Constitution does not protect you from the consequences of your own actions (whether those actions are making an unpopular speech or whatever).

The Klan’s current numbers are nearing 4000, and are increasingly steadily in Pennsylvania, which is where I live.  Good call.

Is that all?  Honestly that is less than I thought.  But lets take a look at that for a second.  4,000 out of a population of over 300,000,000 is approximately 1/1,000 of a percent.  So, out of 100,000 people in the U.S. one of them would be in the KKK.  More of them would diagnosed as mentally ill than would participate in one of those groups, so I don’t think that they are really representative of the US.  If anything, by tolerating such groups, we deprive them of the persecuted martyr status, we allow their own stupidity to be presented to society as a whole (along with the voices countering the groups) and our society as a whole appears to be smart enough to not belong to such stupid groups.

brettalbert, I love my wife and I acknowledge her faults and shortcomings, but I don’t broadcast those to my neighbors.  I sure hope Moore doesn’t love his wife like he loves his country.

Seriously, I may dislike Sean Hannity, but I won’t ever deny that he’s a genius.  He’s programmed every anti-liberal in America to respond to any criticism of America with “you hate America” or “I’m a good American, so I won’t even respond to that.” Beautiful.

Hmm...and people like Moore haven’t programed every anti-Conservative to think anyone who voted for Bush is a Neo-con, Bushitler, Nazi, Hate Monger, war monger, racist, biggot, homophobe, ect.?

All I have to do is look at pictures and videos of the protest marches that Moore partakes in to know just how hateful those so called people of “Peace” are.

Or lets take a look at one of Moores books titled Stupid White Men, hmm...sounds like he is singling out a group of people don’t ya think? If some conservative came out with a book called Stupid Muslim Men, do you think they would be trumpeted by the media so kindly?

brettalbert you are a one sided biased jerk, you hate free speech don’t you?

I feel the same way about Moore that you feel about Sean Hannity. But I am not going to go to some Hate Sean Hannity site, and compare the members there to the KKK.

Free speech is about Free Speech, even if we don’t like it, or if we think someone has crossed a boundary, we all should be able to say what we want.

brettalbert, Here’s a very basic experiment for you.  Go to one of the blogs you’ve mentioned that are anti-right wing or whatever, or some equivalent.  Essentially mirror your position here.  Call them socialists, communists, followers of ward churchill, pussies.  You know, act like how you think a person on the right would act towards them.  Don’t mention it as a test though.  See how long it takes them to ban you.  Then come back here and tell us how tolerant the left is of free speech and the desire to allow different views to be heard, compared to this place.  Do you have the balls to do this?

Maybe he should go to a pro-Moore forum, and respectfully post a few criticle things about Moores work or something positive about Bush and see how they treat him.

Wow.

I spent a good portion of the day catching up with the last several hundred posts here, and don’t really have much to add that hasn’t already been said. So I’ll just say “Hi” to everyone and keep watching the show.

Hi!

I spent a good portion of the day catching up with the last several hundred posts here, and don’t really have much to add that hasn’t already been said.

Dammit Swagger, that’s just not how it’s done. In the future, please follow the example set by our recent guests--show up, don’t bother to read any of the other posts, then repeatedly post the same thing. The more name calling the better.

Enough of this $12grand crap!

It can’t be too hard to poke the borax at a an unhappy old socialist can it? His agenda has failed over and over again. He set you up, exploited you and you fell for it. Now shut up about it. Every bleat is music to his ears.

Remember how miserable the dumb old prick is. Stop cheering him up.