because you just can’t eat your cake and have it too ...

Now I’m just curious whether this is a phrase people use in France or if this person picked it up in the US. ;)

One of the more interesting facts about France’s income taxes is they placed a upper limit on the amount high income earners must pay. That limit I believe is 60%. In other words, although someones taxes may calculate to say 70%, if you meet the requirements, you only have pay a mere 60%.

The French are in a state of denial. In just over a decade they will be spending $66 billion more on health care than they take in. Their public debt is now 65% of GDP.

There’s another country in a state of denial . . . the United States of America. Our national debt is now the same percentage of GDP as France’s, and we don’t have total universal health care yet. Yet we already pay $450 billion a year in interest on that debt. Let me put that another way . . . we pay 0.45 trillion dollars a year in interest on our 8.5 trillion dollar national debt.

When this health care debate picks up steam in the near future, some politicians will tell you taxes must be raised for the common good. There is no common good in fiscal irresponsibility . . . none whatsoever. Remember that next election.

One bright spot for me is since living here in the depressed Peoples Republic of Michigan, I won’t experience “sticker shock” once the U.S. goes the route of “free” universal health care.  Those living elsewhere, on the other hand…

I encourage all who like the sounds of bigger and better entitlement programs to move to the Peoples Republic of Michigan, just to see how a socialist state really works out.  High unemployment (7% while the rest of the country has a shortage of workers), high taxes (12th highest in the nation), 70% of the moving bizness is moving companies/families out of the state, abandoned homes, “For Sale” signs littering bizness and residential districts, etc.  And the guvnah hasn’t even pushed through her proposed biggest income tax hike in 30 years.  Sweeeet.

Australia has a pretty good public health system, and we have no national debt whatsoever, and run annual budget surpluses of around 1% of GDP, we have 33 year low unemployment at 4.2% and and over the last two quarters economic growth has been over 5%.

Our bottom marginal tax rate is 15c in the dollar, our top marginal tax rate is 47c in the dollar which next year will cut in at $180,000 (currently kicks in at $95,000), company tax rate is fixed at 30% flat rate.

Having a health care system is not the reason France are in debt. Poor financial management and monetary policy is.

It is mighty shoddy that Moore misleads the viewer, but not entirely unexpected, giving his past form.

Having a health care system is not the reason France are in debt. Poor financial management and monetary policy is.

Are doctors in Australia required to make house calls? Do they serve wine in the hospital? Isn’t there a co-pay for doctor fees in Australia?

It ain’t just poor financial management in France. Remember, there is one European country that was considering providing a personal assistant for everyone over 65 because it was the “right” of the elderly to have an assistant. This is the mindset in some countries in Europe. Simply put, they spend money for all sorts of silly social programs related to health care that they cannot afford while they chalk up an ever-increasing debt . . . sorta like we do.

Also, does Australia have the immigration problems of France or the US?  Isn’t it culturally more homogenous than those two countries?  This explains some of the differences, IMO.

Crichton:  I also live in the “Peoples Republic of” Michigan.  Our state has some unique challenges, but remember that the legistlature until recently was all Republican.  They all sat back for the last 6+ years and watched the auto industry die before thier eyes, all the while discouraging new ventures with a prohibitive small business tax.  Gov. JenJen has made it a lot worse ans was EASILY reelected.  What a state!

Also, does Australia have the immigration problems of France or the US?  Isn’t it culturally more homogenous than those two countries?  This explains some of the differences, IMO.

Ethnic diversity affecting health care costs and national debt? That doesn’t make any sense…

Check out Western Canada. Debt free provincial governments with all this oil and there is a MASSIVE labor shortage.

A 7-11 in town here closed because the help wanted sign was in the window for 6 months straight. First they offered $12, then $14, and finally $16 per hour (over twice the minimum wage) and no one showed up.

Some days we are PRAYING for a bus load of Mexicans to show up, ready for work. We have too much money and are dangerously underpopulated. Sadly we have laws that restrict who can immigrate to Canada.

Immigrants can fast track their way in if they are educated or are investors of course… But they also have incentive to bring in people for hotels, food preparation, and factory workers (this is based on what province they want to move to. Not all provinces “need” so much immigration and won’t allow as many unskilled foreign workers).

So while immigration laws slowly let in new families to join the labor force, we can import labor from across Canada (the unemployed fishermen of the Atlantic are coming here in a massive exodus) but it isn’t keeping up.

My city has a large number of Eritrean refugees that Canada “adopted” during one of Africa’s dirty little wars. They came in with NOTHING, and were given fantastic education and support (at thee taxpayers expense, of course).

After ten years, they have repaid those tax dollars many times over. The came here with a fantastic work ethic and sense of gratitude to the country. They became doctors, pharmacists, engineers, and tradesmen. Their involvement in local churches was also impressive.

So blaming high cost of health care or a poor economy on “immigrants” or “ethnic diversity” sounds like a cop-out to me… but I guess things are a bit different in the USA.

but I guess things are a bit different in the USA.

Yes, they are.  Perhaps you should do some research to see how the illegal immigration problem affects our system.

Some days we are PRAYING for a bus load of Mexicans to show up, ready for work.

Two comments:
1) How lucky you are to write that—if we’d written that we would have been decried as racists.
2) Be careful what you wish for.

Bismark,

Very true. Canada has Illegal immigrants as well (mainly from China) but they tend to blend in more quickly and become honest tax paying citizens. They tend to fill the large amount of vacant minimum wage positions that we are always struggling to fill.

What makes illegal immigrants a threat to American jobs is the fact that they can sneak into a walmart cleaning crew or onto a fruit farm in California and get paid only $2.50/hr.

Employers have come to depend on the lower cost of exploitable labor, leaving them less incentive to hire honest Americans. Why aren’t you angry about that?

It is the corruption within your system that makes immigrants parasites to your economy rather then assets that can be used to strengthen it.

You won’t solve your problems riding around in pickup trucks, waving confederate flags, and chasing families at border crossings. Maybe focus that effort on investigating the shifty companies that don’t want to pay minimum wage to American born citizens?

But everything I have just said is invalid because I am a Canadian. I am just an outside observer. Things are a mess and it is your responsibility to fix them.

In this coming election year you will find immigration reform to be one of the largest issues you will face at the ballot.

If you are upset with the current system it is your responsibility to support the candidate who will do something about it.

If you are upset with the current system it is your responsibility to support the candidate who will do something about it.

Yeah, wish us luck with that.

The problem with our Republicans is that they’re socially conservative and fiscally liberal.

The problem with our Democrats is that they’re socially conservative and fiscally liberal.

The only real difference between the two is the type and amount of teh crazy they put out. I’m only still nominally on board with the Republicans because their crazy is just aggravating and annoying as opposed to fucking scary.

Canada has Illegal immigrants as well (mainly from China) but they tend to blend in more quickly and become honest tax paying citizens.

That is another difference in our countries.  The illegal immigrants here (largely from Central & South America) have no desire to assimilate. 

Employers have come to depend on the lower cost of exploitable labor, leaving them less incentive to hire honest Americans. Why aren’t you angry about that?

Who’s to say I’m not?  Most of the people I know (both liberal and conservative) acknowledge that part of the system’s failure is due to employers.

You won’t solve your problems riding around in pickup trucks, waving confederate flags, and chasing families at border crossings.

Do you really want to deal in stereotypes?  Do you honestly believe that is the face of the Minutemen organization?  Do you seriously think that most of those people are not politically involved enough to be in contact with their representative, both local and federal?  If so, I urge you to stop watching so much TV, because you have an inaccurate view of what is going on in this country.

I am just an outside observer. Things are a mess and it is your responsibility to fix them.... If you are upset with the current system it is your responsibility to support the candidate who will do something about it.

Again, who’s to say I’m not?  I’m willing to bet you that all of the regulars on this website ARE trying to do something about not illegal immigration, but other problems that we are aware of in our own country.

The fact that employers do such things to immigrants is one of the very good reasons for immigration reform. (Leaving aside the whole “Well, you came here illegally, you kind of deserve what you get” thing.) If people want to immigrate here and work, they should be protected as well. (Which, again, a good reason to do it LEGALLY.)

Wanna hear a story about illegal immigration that’s both sad and funny at the same time?

A guy down in Texas was running a small construction operation. He knew a Coyote, and he’d have this guy bring in truckfuls of Mexican workers. He’d tell these guys “Look, I’ll pay you at the end of the job. Until then, you live in this house I own, the pantry’s stocked up on beans and tortillas, just don’t go anywhere or get yourselves caught.”

Job would get within a day or so of completion, and this guy would call up INS and have ‘em do a raid on the house. The illegals get rounded up and deported, he and some buddies finish up the little bits of work left to do, he pays ‘em nothing. Then the coyote picks up a new batch or in some cases THESE SAME GUYS, sneaks ‘em back into the US, and the cycle starts all over again.

I watched Sicko.  I identify myself as a Democrat on most issues, but there are some (such as gun control) that I am an ardent Republican.  The frenchman’s point is well taken, but consider that the United States also runs hundreds of billions of dollars into debt EACH YEAR and we DON’T have universal healthcare.

I agreed with Micheal Moore’s basic proposition--that America’s health care system needs to take care of everyone regardless of an ability to pay. However, I also understand my conservative compatriots who do not want to be forced to use to privatized health care.  I would suggest providing universal health care but permitting private hospitals to continue to operate and allowing people to continue to carry private health insurance.  Of course, the sound business response to that would be to cancel all privately paid-for insurance to eliminate that business expense and thereby boost profits.

I believe it is appalling that we do not have universal health care.  Even if conservatives are right (and I suspect that they might be) that the hospitals and doctors under a universal health care system would be sub-par, they would be better than nothing, which is exactly what 50 million Americans have every year (it’s actually projected to be higher than that).

By the way, the United States spends roughly 1/3 (33%) of its gross tax receipts to pay for debt service on our 8 trillion dollars of debt, not 16% like the French.  Much of that debt has been borrowed from abroad.  If the debt were paid off, there would be more than enough money to provide state of the art health care to all Americans.  If the U.S. did not borrow a penny from here for the next thirty years, the debt would be eliminated just like a home mortgage.

With the current trends in this country, MORE (as a percentage), not less, people will be without health insurance in the future, and costs for insurance will therefore continue to spiral upward as the health programs of this country are forced to provide emergency care to those who will never pay, and roll those costs into the prices they charge to those who can.  Following this logic, it is very likely that sometime within the next thirty or forty years, only the very rich and those lucky enough to have a government job will have health insurance unless me move to a socialized system of healthcare for everyone.

Just wanted to give my two cents.

Thank you for not being insulting, very refreshing.
One point I could make is we could stop borrowing money if we stopped giving it away. The Bono wants us to forgive Africa’s debt, but we have our own problems to deal with right here at home.

Do you honestly believe that is the face of the Minutemen organization?

(Last thread derail, I promise! lol..)

Truthfully, when news of the early adventures of “project middlemen” started showing up in the news or on the Internet, our first response here in Canada was laughter.

We thought it was either a joke, or possibly even a parody group set up by the extreme left wing as a way to make fun of the traditional right wing response to a problem.

“Ha ha!” was the worlds reaction. “There are no Americans like that left in the 21st century, are there???”

Then we found out they were real, and assumed it was something the media blew out of proportion. “Surely it is only about 12 guys who go out to patrol the border after a lot of drinking. This kind of thing won’t spread”.

It just seemed too surreal for an actual organization like the Minutemen to exist in the 21st century.

We laughed as we saw pro wrestler “JBL” on his little video as a parody of the minutemen.. he would lurk in the bushes and jump out and chase families with his flashlight. Comical gold. All the while he had “Paco”, his Mexican limo driver.

We also laughed when Bryan Barton caught an immigrant illegally crossing and paid him to hold up a shirt for a photo op. The shirt read “Bryan Barton caught me crossing the border and all I got was this lousy T-shirt”.

Then we started seeing reports of human rights groups and the ADL patrolling the minutemen as the minutemen patrolled the border. “ummm what?” was our response. So this wasn’t just a big joke?

It was at this point we learned the minutemen group was much larger then we expected. It wasn’t just a small band of “good old boys”. It picked up the reputation of being a vigilante group (your presidents own words, not mine).

To date there has yet to be a large armed or violent conflict involving the minutemen.

Despite the facts to the contrary, the rest of the world now associates the minutemen as more of a skinhead or white supremacist organization. No longer a joke, now a rather scary group of individuals. The media isn’t too friendly of their coverage of the minutemen. “Backwater hillbillies” or white trash is how they are summed up in global news these days.

This is untrue, and rather unfair to the people who consider themselves patriots. I am not sure where you stand on the minutemen, Bismark, but the rest of the world see’s them through the diluted lens of the media.

The rest of the world also vividly recalls the past, the human rights violations the south was so famous for in the last century. All the minutemen succeed at doing is stirring up old memories of the dark days of the south.

My comment about pickup trucks and confederate flags was more of a joke in the context I used it in, but it was an honest reflection of what most of the world still thinks about the southern states.

But forget the rest of the worlds opinion of America and the minutemen…

Within the USA, an organization like the minutemen can end up doing more harm then good. They do assist in getting a handful of arrests along the border, but they feed the fuel in a “backlash” by political opponents.

Your own media is very unkind to the organization, and many politicians seek to distance themselves from the group. The last thing the Republican party needs going into the election is another thorn in it’s side, least of all from a wild card special interest group like the minutemen.

Add to the fact that people in the Northern states typically have no sympathy or respect for an organization like the minutemen as they are less dramatically impacted by illegal immigration. A friend of mine in New York once referred to the minutemen as “redneck pieces of shit”, and he wasn’t alone in his bias.

Those beliefs and stereotypes of pickup trucks and confederate flags will follow them to the ballot box. Is it worth arresting 18 Mexicans at the cost of alienating yourself from half the country?

In a word?

Yes.

Everything you wrote about the Minutemen says more about you, the Democrats, the American media, our half Mexican-owned, half Saudi-owned president, and the rest of the world than it does about the decent, law-abiding Americans who want our borders secure and our current laws enforced. And that’s the period on that sentence.

cucm10...what Rapid R said.  Thanks.  More like you, please!  :)

One thing I’d like to address: If we stop borrowing money, we cannot pay for our current “needs.”

Solution?  TRIM THE BUDGET!  Something I think everyone, right left or center should get behind.  This will mean trimming EVERYTHING, not just defense or pork barrel spending.  Entitlements too.  Reduce the size (and scope) of the Federal machine.

If and ONLY if we can do that - get balanced without debt and have a surplus to service the debt we already owe - then I’d be willing to talk Universal Special Magic Health Care For All Provided By Good Old Uncle Sam.

(that’s not exactly a catchy name.  I’ll work on it.)

Kinda funny how the Canadians will laugh at the Minutemen, but when their own, actual border guards piss themselves and flee in fear from a single car with possibly armed assailants in it, it’s not so amusing to them anymore.

JimK, it might be catchier to just refer to it as USMHCFAPBGOUS©.  All good gov’t programs are known by their wonderful acronyms.  :)

It just seemed too surreal for an actual organization like the Minutemen to exist in the 21st century.

It seems surreal to me that our gov’t is unwilling to maintain its own border.
But I will give you this: it was gutsy of you to acknowledge one thing that many leftists will not:

To date there has yet to be a large armed or violent conflict involving the minutemen.

For the record, I am to some extent a child of the South—a native Texan (and Texas is a whole ‘nother country.) And believe it or not, but I know how to use indoor plumbing, and I have all my teeth, and my car is not up on cinder blocks in the front yard, and my sister is not my wife.  So when the world looks at us through such a distorted lens… for the world to buy into a tabloidist media that is prone to and even aims for such stereotype… for you to even entertain such a belief system… I say, “go to Hell.” It is truly the best response.

P.S.:

A friend of mine in New York once referred to the minutemen as “redneck pieces of shit”

I’d expect a Yankee to think that.  }:>

One last post on the topic… ;)
Mr. Trout, I’m honestly not trying to be ornery—in fact, I appreciate yours and cucm10’s posts, which are sensible breaths of fresh air—but in regards to Rann’s post:

Kinda funny how the Canadians will laugh at the Minutemen, but when their own, actual border guards piss themselves and flee in fear from a single car with possibly armed assailants in it, it’s not so amusing to them anymore.

Do you care that, based on that news item, the world might presume that all Canadians are gutless?  And if you do care… why?

Tried replying twice and got nuked by the web site each time.

Do these threads get locked after a certain length? I’m kind of new here.

90 days...after that no replies are accepted.  Keeps the spammers from going to old posts.

Odd.. now it works.

Kinda funny how the Canadians will laugh at the Minutemen, but when their own, actual border guards piss themselves and flee in fear from a single car with possibly armed assailants in it, it’s not so amusing to them anymore.

Yea that is a funny news story! Normally I am not offended by anything, but i get what you are saying. I suppose it depends on which version of the story you selectively listen to.

For those who have no idea what he was referring to, I’ll give you the “foxnews” version of the story.

“The Canadian Border was evacuated today when the Washington State highway patrol alerted them that heavily armed fugitives were heading their way. That’s what they get for not letting their border patrol carry guns.”

Wow. Sounds kind of embarrassing “eh”?

But when you fill in the gaps the story sounds much less sensational.

- The decision to close the affected border crossing was made to ease the congestion of traffic in order to reduce risk to civilians in an armed conflict.

- The RCMP (Canadian federal police officers) were standing by prepared to intercept the vehicle after it crossed the border.

- The preferred intercept site was about 2 miles down the highway, where they could lay a spike strip and set up a more effective road block with virtually no risk to bystanders.

- The RCMP are heavily armed and better equipped to deal with criminals who could be wearing body armor or wielding automatic weapons (as was initially reported to them in the case of these suspects.)

So it came down to tactics. Have a shootout at a crowded border crossing with a dozen or so American tourists in the crossfire.... OR engage the suspect at a location of your choosing.

In the end, NOTHING happened. No shootout. Bad information on the suspects.

As for our border guards themselves, they are well trained and well paid. The starting wage is around $55,000 a year ($52,000 UDS in today’s economy).

And they DO carry handguns, as do any other peace officers in Canada.

As federal peace officers, they all require a college education, and THEN are required to enroll in a type of police academy in Quebec. There they get the usual hostage negotiation, counter terrorism, and firearms training. They then go to a different academy to learn trade and customs laws, and how to navigate the miles of red tape.

So all in all they are a decent crew, those Canadian border guards. They aren’t $6/hr rental cops.

Comparing them to the minutemen is not a good idea. To join the minutemen you need to meet the following requirements:

- Own a flag. A BIG flag.

- Firmly believe that “The Dukes of Hazard” was a documentary series

- Obesity is not only tolerated, it is encouraged.

- Wear a ballcap over you mullet.

HA.. no I am not being serious. I’m just being mean and maybe a bit provocative. I’ll play the stereotype game all you want, but keep in mind the Minutemen make EASY targets.

Seriously, the notion that all Canadians are gutless came long before this little border incident. It doesn’t bother me one bit. In fact I am usually more entertained by it then anything…

We are used to the fact that various media tend to report news only in a manner that meets their agenda. Canadians suffer from it as do the minutemen, and the same is true for every politician in the last 100 years.

Hey, I know Canadians aren’t gutless.  Just less willing to fight at the drop of a hat...like, you know...Americans. ;) When they do fight, Canadian soldiers are damn fine fighting men and women.  I imagine the cops are the same.

The Minutemen do not deserve the shots they take in the American media, and they damn sure don’t deserve what is said about them by foreign press.  I still say that anyone who maintains that reporting illegal border crossings is a “redneck” act of racism is FAR more fucked up than they claim the Minutemen are.

The Minutemen are doing nothing more than neighborhood watch on a huge scale.

Hey, I know Canadians aren’t gutless.  Just less willing to fight at the drop of a hat...like, you know...Americans. ;)

Heh. Just last night I saw a Marvel comic where Spider-Man quipped, “The sequel to Team America is playing downtown. It’s called Team Canada. They spend the first ten minutes fighting, and then the rest of the movie apologizing for it.”

We are used to the fact that various media tend to report news only in a manner that meets their agenda.

So, judging from the tone in your posts, it’s not okay to buy into the Fox representation of Canadian border guards, but okay to buy into the CNN representation of the Minutemen...?

Canadian soldiers are damn fine fighting men and women.

I’ll second that, from third-hand knowledge—I went to school with a woman who now flies helicopters for the Navy, and she practically raved one time about serving with some Canadian officers. 

anyone who maintains that reporting illegal border crossings is a “redneck” act of racism is FAR more fucked up than they claim the Minutemen are.

I’ll second and third that one… though I’m not accusing Mr. Trout of being fucked up.  He just hasn’t come to terms yet with being an American wannabe.  }:>

So, judging from the tone in your posts, it’s not okay to buy into the Fox representation of Canadian border guards, but okay to buy into the CNN representation of the Minutemen...?

I know my posts tend to be rather long, so I can forgive you for “selectively” reading just the provocative parts. But if you scroll up you will see that most of my comments referred to the global media and even the American media as UNFAIRLY portraying the minutemen.

EVERY time I mentioned the media’s coverage of the minutemen, I referred to it as biased, unkind, or “selective coverage”.

The only personal opinion of the minutemen I shared was that they are sometimes comical, but for the most part harmless. I also feel they are providing a rather redundant service.

That opinion came from discussing the matter with American friends and participation in political blogs. CNN or the NY times do not dictate what I think.

Every other comment I made was just a reiteration of the “typical media perspective” of the group. I stated many times it was unfair coverage. And the comment that they were vigilantes? That came from the lips of your own president, not from me.

Finally, if you are left wing or right wing this is still funny:
“Bryan Barton caught me crossing the border and all I got was this lousy T-shirt”.