I’m Canadian, and as a Canadian it’s shocking to see some of the horror stories of people who are in dire need of medical assistance in the US.
Yes, there are wait times in Canada at hospitals, and there’s HUGE debate right now because our current prime minister wants to bring in private health care, in essence making a 2 tier system.

Nurses in Canada are SERIOUSLY underpaid compared to technicians and doctors. That’s one of the flaws in a public system, the supply/demand doesn’t dictate the salaries. In order for the system to work the government needs to pay the STANDARD salary a person doing a comparable job WOULD make in the private sector.

As for people rushing the border to the US to get medical treatment… um I don’t think it’s an epidemic that Canada needs to worry about. My personal experience has been great with the Canadian Health Care system. My wife can call and get an appointment with our family doctor within 1-3 days of calling, if it’s a serious there’s NO problem getting a same day appointment.  If it’s an EMERGENCY then it’s the hospital, and we’re lucky to have three hospitals in our area, and the most we’ve ever had to wait in the emergency room is 2 hours. The last time we went we got in to see the doctor in half an hour, and we were out within an hour.

Canada has an amazing health care system, yes there are problems, but they’re small in comparison the alternative.

Well JOttley, if you’re experience is all the evidence required to show that Canada’s medical system is great then my experience is all the evidence required to show that America’s medical system is even better.

When I need to go into see the doctor, I typically can get in that day to see one.  Not even a 3 day wait.  And I hardly have to wait before they see me.So therefore America’s health system is much better than Canada’s based on what I have seen.

But of course you won’t agree with that premise now would you.  Niether would I of course, but I’m not the hypocrite basing healthcare on the garbage shown in moore’s film and only my personal experiences.

Nothing destroys an industry in America like a union.

Take a peek at most unionized industries in America.  Now find one that *isn’t* TV or movies that is actually competitive in it’s industry.

Unions were necessary at one point - and still may be in some limited industries - but mostly they just destroy whole areas of the economy.  Nothing screams “I got mine, fuck the non-union employees and the company too, who cares if they go belly up” like a modern-day union.  They’ve grown from a good idea to a monster that eats itself.

Some great points, Jottley!  I was a tad glib in my swipe at government salaries.  But as you point out, that’s one way the government keeps the prices down.  And, incidentally, nurse salaries in this country are suffering because of the squeeze of half the country being on socialized medicine.

But I’ve known too many people who worked in border hospitals to be so dismissive of your claim that Canadians are happy with their care.  They would be offering cash and sometimes jewelry just to get care.

Well JOttley, if you’re experience is all the evidence required to show that Canada’s medical system is great then my experience is all the evidence required to show that America’s medical system is even better.

When I need to go into see the doctor, I typically can get in that day to see one.  Not even a 3 day wait.  And I hardly have to wait before they see me.So therefore America’s health system is much better than Canada’s based on what I have seen.

But of course you won’t agree with that premise now would you.  Niether would I of course, but I’m not the hypocrite basing healthcare on the garbage shown in moore’s film and only my personal experiences.

I was trying to relate personal experience to display my opinion of the Canadian Health Care system. My experiences are fact.

I could have been a jerk and just asked the guy where his facts are, because Canadian clinics are NOT closing or running out of money and masses of Canadians are NOT running across the border for medical treatment. I’m offended that at the para phrasing of the original article.

I guess I have to get a thicker skin and become a little more blunt to post on these boards.

I was trying to relate personal experience to display my opinion of the Canadian Health Care system. My experiences are fact.

So are mine.  And they show my opinion of the American Health Care system.

So since you seem to think we should be accepting your view that Canada’s system is great.  Why can’t you accept my view that America’s system is great?

Because there are stories in the media every day SCREAMING about how bad the system is in the US?

Although Michael Moore has released “Sicko”, he’s just following the tide and capitalizing on the national worry about health care in the US IMO.

That’s one of my biggest peeves about Michael Moore, is that he’s far from original, OR as much as a maverick as he proclaims to be. He’s jumped on a ship that’s already sailing and trying to commandeer it for his own gain.

Because there are stories in the media every day SCREAMING about how bad the system is in the US?

You have a remarkable ability to blind yourself to things you don’t want to see.

Here’s a partial list stories of Canadian health care that contradict your every word.

I suggest you read them all before you comment again.  Don’t just glance and dismiss them.  Read them, and understand that you are glossing over the flaws in the Canadian system while simultaneously magnifying the flaws in the US system.

You are doing Moore’s BS obfuscation work for him.

i live in canada.  i get into my doctor the day i call.  my best friend who was recently diagnosed with stage 3 breast cancer (at the young age of 38) saw a specialist the day after her GP suspected cancer and she started chemo the day after that.  i have had nothing but top notch healthcare for my entire 34 years.  i don’t know a single person who has had to wait for healthcare in this country.  sure...people whine that a doctor won’t give them an MRI on demand, but i only waited 2 weeks for an MRI and saw a neurosurgeon within a few weeks of getting the results.  so i don’t know who is telling you that we have to wait days and months for care, but it is patently NOT true.

the people who are “lining up to get care in buffalo” are not the majority.  and from the sources i have read, the number of canadians who do that are few and far between.

my many US friends are constantly amazed at the excellent care Canadian citizens get.  and we don’t have to worry about an HMO denying us for anything.  i don’t know a single american who actually trusts an HMO with their health. 

you can love your country and still think that corporate healthcare is systemically based in greed and clearly not a system that is created for the good of the health of its people.  i mean, that is just a fact. 

health care is a right...not a privilege, and the fact that health care execs make money by denying care for their customers is insane.

health care is a right

FOOD is a right, even more so than health care.  When will we get food care?

I’m a Canadian who has lived in the US for five years (my wife is American). I have first hand experience with both systems. I have had significant surgery while in Canada (hernia, appendicitis, burn accident), and my wife has had health issues here in the U.S. I do believe the Canadian system was oversold in the movie as “perfect”. No system is. That said, from my own perspective, I did always receive excellent care, timeley and trouble-free. Likewise for my family members. I wish I could say the same since living in the U.S. I like the U.S. and Americans, and love my wife but while there are many great things about the US - its healthcare system is not one of them. Michael Moore may oversell the Canadian system, but I am constantly amazed by the complete distortion of the truth I see on television here to the opposite effect. As someone who knows both systems intimately, I would definitely choose the Canadian system.

You have a remarkable ability to blind yourself to things you don’t want to see.

The more I read and post on these forums, it seems there are alot of people with this problem.

I suggest you read them all before you comment again.  Don’t just glance and dismiss them.  Read them, and understand that you are glossing over the flaws in the Canadian system while simultaneously magnifying the flaws in the US system.

I never said that the Canadian system was perfect, but it’s a hell of alot better than the US system IMO.

You are doing Moore’s BS obfuscation work for him.

Well, I originally came to this site because of the movie, I saw it on the weekend. I came here to take a look around and discuss things that are brought up. I’m far from a Michael Moore fan, my wife is fanatical about him, I am not.

So far my opinion is that it seems to be a kind of “pat on the back club” where a group of people who have like minded opinions like to jump on and attack people who have different opions. I’ve tried to be polite and respectful in responses and comments, but am continually attacked. The open minded discussion that you claim to happen here on the forums has illuded me for the most part.

As for Michael Moore, he’s a profiteer IMO, jumping on the biggest ship and sailing it around for his own ends. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a great example, he TOTALLY ripped off a Canadian episode of the Fifth Estate…

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/secrethistory/

This show aired on September 11, 2001, almost 3 years before Michael Moore’s version. It’s amazing how similar the two are.

As for you, I did feel bad that Michael Moore had given you money, and then made a mockery by taking claim for it in his movie. After coming to these boards though, I don’t see very much of a difference between the two of you. You’re both very much american. Being a capitalist, you should be TOTALLY taking advantage of this situation. I’m surprised that you’re not going on talk shows and things for money! This is your chance to make it big! I bet Larry King would TOTALLY have you on his show, think of the MOOLA, think of the web site promotion… the advertising income....

Any way, have a great day eh?

Being a capitalist, you should be TOTALLY taking advantage of this situation. I’m surprised that you’re not going on talk shows and things for money! This is your chance to make it big! I bet Larry King would TOTALLY have you on his show, think of the MOOLA, think of the web site promotion… the advertising income....

You have an overeager imagination about capitalists.  Not everything is geared around “the almighty dollar.”

Capitalism is TOTALLY about making money lol.

Not everyone who supports capitalism is motivated by greed, as you seem to suggest.

Posted by JOttley on 07/09/2007 at 01:54 PM (Link to this comment | )

Capitalism is TOTALLY about making money lol.

Naaa, it’s about earning money by making and selling people stuff… they want. Whereas socialism is about forcing people to behave in accordance with social engineering theories of socialists… Bunch of control freaks who don’t really like the choices people tend to make.. and want to ‘fix’ them… ‘for them’…

Making money--bad…

That’s why people in the western provinces are leasing their oil-rich land to oil companies and buying vacation homes in the U.S.

My nephew-in law is a Canadian who has become a U.S. citizen.  He has relatives in the western provinces that are making $6000 per week by leasing their property to oil companies.  They love cashing those royalty checks, but I don’t remember them decrying capitalism.  They do kind of piss and moan about giving 50-60% of it back to fund guvment programs, though.

His dad also has become a U.S. citizen and works for some of those big oil companies.  I asked him why he became a U.S. citizen and it had something to do about taxes.  Go figure…

“Allow me to translate for those of you who don’t speak Canadian”

Well I speak Canadian… so looking forward to this.

“Well, our heathcare (sic) system might have long delays”

Long delays?  For everything? So when I walk into the Doctors office I will experience a long delay?  I’d guess the wait would be as long or as big as his office (about 6 seats by the way).

“and rationing.”

Not sure what that refers to.

“And clinics may close when they run out money”

Closing of Clinics… not sure what that refers to.  Source?

“sending Canadians scurrying to Buffalo to drop cash for care”

Numbers are small.  But I am sure it happens once and a while.

So, do Americans ever leave the US for medical services?

“Average American incomes aren’t increasing at double-digit rates each year even though in some instances the price of fuel, housing and healthcare are. One option taken by growing numbers of Americans is to access the private boutique or concierge healthcare services available elsewhere in the world.”

Heck they even have a term for it “Medical Tourism”

http://www.medicaltourismofcostarica.com/

“Real savings of up to 75% off US prices for Plastic Surgery, General and Cosmetic Dentistry, Bariatric Medicine, General Surgery, and more.”

http://www.vitabeat.com/medical-tourism-on-the-rise-in-united-states/v/6469/

“In a bid to receive the high-quality yet low-priced health care, many Americans are travelling to other countries. Driven by the higher medical-treatment costs across U.S., the new trend of “medical tourism” has emerged in the country.

The trend is also affected by the growing numbers of uninsured or under-insured Americans in the country. Medical tourism or medical travel is the act of traveling to other countries to obtain medical, dental, and surgical care. The term was initially coined by travel agencies and the media as a catchall phrase to describe a rapidly growing industry where people travel to other countries to obtain medical care.”

What part of the world are Americans “scurrying” to for their healthcare?

DVDguy

JOttley:

“So far my opinion is that it seems to be a kind of “pat on the back club” where a group of people who have like minded opinions like to jump on and attack people who have different opions. I’ve tried to be polite and respectful in responses and comments, but am continually attacked. The open minded discussion that you claim to happen here on the forums has illuded me for the most part.”

Stick around for a bit, they will not bite (not too hard anyway).

“As for Michael Moore, he’s a profiteer IMO, jumping on the biggest ship and sailing it around for his own ends. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a great example, he TOTALLY ripped off a Canadian episode of the Fifth Estate…

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/secrethistory/

This show aired on September 11, 2001, almost 3 years before Michael Moore’s version. It’s amazing how similar the two are.”

Actually Moore didn’t rip off the CBC. Naturally a doc called “The Secret History of 9/11” would not have aired on 9/11/01. If it did, I’d believe all this conspiracy BS! (lol)

http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/secrethistory/timeline5.html

The first airing was : Sunday September 10, 2006 at 7pm on CBC-TV.

F 9/11 came out June 25, 2004. G

Secret History is a good Doc. Really explains how the Saudis failed to tell the US that they continued Support to Bin Laden once Russia left. Wasn’t the best idea.

DVDGuy, for someone who takes such great offense at any generalization about Canada, why do you do so much generalizing about the US?

Just curious.

JimK:  “why do you do so much generalizing about the US”. 

If I come across that way, it certainly wasn’t my intention.  When someone screams “the sky is falling"… I ask, well show me proof. Naturally you can’t include links to every word you type here, and as I mentioned in another post you may covered things 100 times before DVDguy came along.

To be honest I came to this site to see where the “anger” comes from.  Folks seem to just not dislike Moore, they freaking hate the guy!  It appears to this Canadian that politics in the US is so Left and Right… with no middle ground. Right or wrong in every situation. Maybe it is the two party system. I’ve just found life to be somewhere in the middle.  Here in Canada DVDguy normally votes Liberal.  Sadly we had these fat cats that sat in power way too long, and milked the system. What did we do here in Canada?  Voted them out (well almost anyhow).

I have conservative views and liberal ones as well.  When the US went into Iraqi I thought it was the right thing to do. Now I don’t. When Canadian troops went to Afghanistan I thought that was the right thing to do. Should they stay forever… nope.  The Afghanistan people will never allow it.

Came here to learn, not generalize.  Hopefully others will to.

Thanks for the response JimK.

I had honestly never seen a Michael Moore movie until I saw ‘Sicko’. A lot of my friends and family have seen the other movies, and feel absolutely disgusted with the man since he portrays a lot of false information by using simple movie techniques....so naturally I assumed he wasn’t worth giving the time of day to and that he is just a bad man.

Now that I have seen his movie, I can see why people have said such things but I have to give him credit for raising good and legitimate questions. To say that the our nations health care industry is fine the way it is, is ignorant.

I’ve been a resident at my hospital for nearly 9 years now and I have seen many situations similar to the ones that were presented in his movie, ones that prevent patients from receiving the best possible care because their insurance company do not want to pay for it, and in turn denies their claim. This is unacceptable for a country that prides itself on being the leader of other countries.

Do I believe that Universal Health Care is the solution? Hell no. It would take years upon years to start a new universal system from scratch and I’m sure the government will find a way to screw it up. But I truly believe that Michael Moore’s movie will raise the right questions in the right minds to help this country take a step in the right direction for our health care system. Even if it only ends in better regulations and stricter policies on the medical insurance companies, it will be well received not only from those who are in need, but by the medical community as well.

Anyways that’s just my two cents.

i only waited 2 weeks for an MRI and saw a neurosurgeon within a few weeks of getting the results.  so i don’t know who is telling you that we have to wait days and months for care, but it is patently NOT true.

So uh, what’s the conversion factor for Canadian days weeks and months to American days weeks and months? I always think it’s funny when someone manages to contradict themselves in consecutive sentences.  If you keep working hard, you might one day be able to pull a 180 in the same sentence.

“Real savings of up to 75% off US prices for Plastic Surgery, General and Cosmetic Dentistry, Bariatric Medicine, General Surgery, and more.”

Cosmetic surgery?  Is that part of the Costa Rican national coverage?  Free boob jobs for every man woman and child?  I don’t think so. 

Procedures routinely offered by plastic surgeons in Costa Rica include total and partial face-lifts or reconstruction; tummy tucks; breast reduction, augmentation and reconstruction; liposuction and liposculpture. Prices however, are generally 50% lower than in North America. For example, facial cosmetic surgery (face lift), one of the most commonly performed procedures in the country, can cost from $6,000 to $12,000 in the United States. Comparable surgery in Costa Rica will cost between $3,000 and $4,000 including clinic stay, medicines, nursing care and the surgery. A visitor seeking dental work from simple fillings to surgical implants and periodontics can also anticipate large savings without compromising quality of care. In Costa Rica, dental implants cost between $750 - $850 per implant, compared to twice that in the U.S. While laboratory work in Costa Rica is much less expensive than in the United States, all materials are FDA approved and imported from the United States.

After a brief bit of research it’s quite easy to find that many of the Costa Rican outfits offering medical tourism are private.  All of them boast American trained doctors.  So what’s your point with this example exactly?

By the way, the main way they reduce their costs in Costa Rica is by paying their labor pennies a day.  It’s nice and cheap to run a hospital when the support staff gets 100 bucks a week.  Think that can work here?

http://cimahospital.com/start.html

How do you like that. 

One of them [the largest one] is an American company.

Go figure.

Access to a waiting list is not access to health care. The wait times in Canada, as posted on the Internet by each individual province, is the stuff that malpractice lawyers in this country live for. Being denied radiation treatment 8 weeks after breast surgery is unheard of in the U.S. for that very reason.

What is so alien to U.S. citizens is the concept that it is actually against the law to pay for private treatment in Canada. The philosophy that if everyone can’t have something, then it’s denied to everyone is in fact unconstitutional in this country.

All single-payer systems suffer the same disease. They creep toward insolvency. It’s a slow process, but it’s undenial. The NHS in the UK had a 14-year head start on Canada. Today, in the UK they discuss who gets denied what. Tomorrow, in Canada they will be doing the same.

"So what’s your point with this example exactly?”

Americans leave their country for medical reasons....  well, generally to save money on medical procedures.

Costa Rica is NOT the only country offering “Medical Tourism”:

http://www.costaricaamigo.com/stories/medtourism.jpg

“Being denied radiation treatment 8 weeks after breast surgery” Got a Link for that claim?

“against the law to pay for private treatment in Canada”.  Paid $109 to my Dentist three weeks ago… wasn’t arrested.

“many of the Costa Rican outfits offering medical tourism are private.  All of them boast American trained doctors.”

All at 75% cheaper than the US itself.

Great when it’s all about $$$.

DVDguy

All single-payer systems suffer the same disease. They creep toward insolvency. It’s a slow process, but it’s undenial. The NHS in the UK had a 14-year head start on Canada. Today, in the UK they discuss who gets denied what.

And according to my friends in the UK, anyone with any amount of additional income gets private care on top of their nhs, because to not do so is stupid.

You know I also believe that there is a link somewhere on this website about how people who suffer a heart attack have better survivability in the long run since our doctors prescribe better more expensive drugs than canada, where the socialized system is buying the cheapos to save money.

All at 75% cheaper than the US itself.

This doesn’t really further any point about healthcare in America.  Do you know why health costs are rising in America?  Because the government is continually footing a greater percentage of the bill.  The government is routinely charged a greater amount than the average consumer and this doesn’t just include healthcare.

I could also cite the “paper” increase in cost of healthcare as a means of balancing out the formula.  Entities like Medicaid are infamous for for paying 30 or 40 cents on the dollar on what they are charged.  Bills are therefore inflated to compensate.  Many doctors have testified about this practice.

Americans leave their country for medical reasons....  well, generally to save money on medical procedures.

Costa Rica is NOT the only country offering “Medical Tourism”:

But don’t you see that Americans are going to countries that are doing a better job of providing a capitalist system to Americans? 

Could those same countries provide the same capitalist system to all of their citizens at a subsidized cost?  Hell no.  Increase demand decrease supply increase cost.  That’s how it works.  The great “healthcare” in San Jose is great for people who pay for it.  Step outside San Jose into the shoes of the common Juan and it’s not the same.

Can you show me a place that offers public services to American tourists for a fee that citizens get as part of their normal healthcare package?  So far all you’ve shown me are face lifts and boob jobs.  Is this really what we are concerned about our poor having access to?

All at 75% cheaper than the US itself.

Great when it’s all about $$$.

Which illustrates my point.  Is this what you’re arguing as well?  That a capitalist systems works better?

could someone here please explain to me the merits of an hmo based system?  i’m reading all of these random points that are apparently a basis for an overall argument but have not seen anything comprehensive that actually proves a point.

i’m wondering specifically:

- how a corporatized healthcare system creates accessible health care for people who cannot afford $1,000/month plus to pay out to an hmo or thousands of dollars for treatment out of pocket.
- how a citizen paying a monthly premium can be sure that their HMO is looking out for their health interests when the corporation is created around making money from people’s health.  do you feel confident that you will receive the quality of care you will require if you become critically ill?  i know a lot of people who have been “denied coverage” for seemingly random reasons in the US even though they have valid and paid insurance.
- what do you do if a treatment costs $60,000 and you only make $50,000 a year?
- do Americans really trust corporate CEO’s whose salary is based on profit?  it’s pretty logical that if an hmo could deny coverage to someone in the name of profit, they would.  perhaps this is what keeps the legal industry employed?  but i honestly want to know if this makes you feel secure.
- any other points you can provide (facts please, not opinions) that prove a corporate healthcare system provides the best care for the entire population and not just the ones with the cash to afford it. 

i’m also ready a lot on here about the canadian system from people who obviously have never lived in canada.  Most of it is totally untrue. the all-knowing interweeb and the US media machine may create a picture of poor canadians suffering cancer and dying at home because they have been “denied treatment” but this is patently NOT TRUE. 
breast cancer is a specific example that keeps coming up here.  women in this country who are diagnosed with breast cancer receive treatment within a day or two of their diagnosis.  and they don’t receive a bill for thousands of dollars when they have been cured.

Being denied radiation treatment 8 weeks after breast surgery is unheard of in the U.S. for that very reason.

It’s unheard of in Canada as well!!! 

It’s really frustrating reading all of this stuff from people who are getting their information from the internet because it ISN’T TRUE.

Furthermore, I can guarantee that people with breast cancer in the US who cannot afford health care are being denied treatment by the truckload because of an HMO not wanting to pay for the coverage.

I cannot find any hard facts that prove to me that a profit-based healthcare system is the best thing for a population.  Sure, everyone has an opinion that propagates their political stance...but im interested in facts.

It seems to me that the argument here is just another variation of the welfare debate. In the US, if you have the money, the healthcare is the best in the world (which is why Health Tourism exists, for those who have the money). In the UK, if you don’t have the money, you at least get a decent level of care (subsidised by the taxes of the rich) as a safety net.

I’d still like to see some stats on how much people pay for socialised healthcare. I am a UK citizen, but I don’t know how much of my income tax goes towards the NHS. I also have a private option, which costs me £23 per month.

How does this compare with if I was living in the US?

how a corporatized healthcare system creates accessible health care for people who cannot afford $1,000/month plus to pay out to an hmo or thousands of dollars for treatment out of pocket.

I only pay $47/month.  And that’s taken out of my paycheck before its even taxed.

do you feel confident that you will receive the quality of care you will require if you become critically ill?

Yes.  Am I confident that my medical insurance will pay for it?  No. 

what do you do if a treatment costs $60,000 and you only make $50,000 a year?

How can people buy a house that costs $300,000 when then make only $50,000 a year?

do Americans really trust corporate CEO’s whose salary is based on profit?  it’s pretty logical that if an hmo could deny coverage to someone in the name of profit, they would.

And then it gets out that this HMO is denying massive amounts of medical care to people, then they will start to leave that HMO for other insurers.  Suddenly that HMO is receiving less money, and they are no longer getting profit.

It’s really frustrating reading all of this stuff from people who are getting their information from the internet because it ISN’T TRUE.

Furthermore, I can guarantee that people with breast cancer in the US who cannot afford health care are being denied treatment by the truckload because of an HMO not wanting to pay for the coverage.

Do I even need to comment on the irony of those two statements being back to back?

how a corporatized healthcare system creates accessible health care for people who cannot afford $1,000/month plus to pay out to an hmo or thousands of dollars for treatment out of pocket.

Name one person with premiums that high.  Please.  My personal insurance costs $32/month, like Buzz this is taken directly out of my check.  I never heard of anyone paying over $70/month personally.  If the government would butt out of the healthcare business and stop offering incentives to employers for providing health insurance, that cost per month would drop even lower.

Do you feel confident that you will receive the quality of care you will require if you become critically ill?

Absolutely 100% confident.  In fact, I’ve had emergency kidney surgery three years ago to remove an obstructed kidney stone.  Care was excellent, three day hospital stay, tests, and surgery cost me ~$700.

i know a lot of people who have been “denied coverage” for seemingly random reasons in the US even though they have valid and paid insurance.

I know a lot of people in Canada that have died on waiting lists.  Of course, that isn’t the standard in Canada.  Neither is people being denied coverage or payment in the US.  The flaws of each system can both be magnified to seem like the norm, but neither is true.

what do you do if a treatment costs $60,000 and you only make $50,000 a year?

What do you do if your house burns down and is not covered by insurance?  Hypotheticals make no sense in debate.  Either way, yes, there are people that are put into financial hardship over healthcare.  There are also people who are put into financial hardship over bad investments, credit cards, and a myriad of other things.  Until it can be shown that the average person of average means and average insurance is put into financial hardship the point doesn’t hold water.  We can point out the extreme downsides of all healthcare systems all day.  In response, comparing extreme for extreme, I would say being $60k in debt AFTER receiving quality medical care is much preferrable to being dead because you were on a wait list.

do Americans really trust corporate CEO’s whose salary is based on profit?

Absolutely.  I would trust them even more if I had better means of directly effecting their salary.  As Buzz pointed out, free markets dictate quality service toward the consumer better than any sort of government oversight or regulation.  Any HMO that got a reputation for denying claims, bad customer service, or high premiums would rapidly lose customers and consequently profit.  This isn’t the case in America right now because of government regulation and oversight that has made it make more sense for large corporations to focus their insurance coverages toward employers and not individuals.  As such, there is a higher amount of individual dissatisfaction that is not relayed to employer dissatisfaction.

any other points you can provide (facts please, not opinions) that prove a corporate healthcare system provides the best care for the entire population and not just the ones with the cash to afford it.

Sure.  Its been proven by the American government time and time again that it cannot manage a socialized program without bankrupting it.  Healthcare would be no different.  Sure, it might be “free” but quality of care would decline and cutbacks would bite extremely deeply very rapidly.  Look at “Killer King” in LA and Walter Reed as shining examples of government run institutions.  As has been point out time and time again...Universal Health Care is a cash cow.  It cannot possibly bring in enough money to cover its costs.  It runs in the red constantly, which means the government will borrow money from other programs and cutback care quality and speed as well as medical professional pay to compensate.  This leads to a declining and unhealthy system.

Also, a government run program becomes basically immune to the will of the people.  This means that once wait times and quality of care hit a critical point the people will be unable to bring about change.  See the state of social security, medicaid, or welfare in America for proof of this.  A private industry, in contrast, is managed solely by the will of the people.  If your product is garbage, people will take their business elsewhere and you will either have to bring your product up to standard or go out of business.  Natural competition would keep premiums low, denials at a minimum, and quality of care high.

I also have a private option, which costs me £23 per month.

How does this compare with if I was living in the US?

I would say very favorably with the vast majority of American citizens.  Thats about $47 US, which I would say is about middle of the road for the average plan in America.

now that you mention it...i wouldn’t trust the american gov’t with managing a healthcare system either.  look what they’ve done with your army and your war...what’s the death toll up to now?  they manufacture a war and send their citizens into it with a signed death warrant.

yep.  i would definitely not trust the US gov’t with managing a healthcare system.

“Being denied radiation treatment 8 weeks after breast surgery” Got a Link for that claim?

Yeah, I do.

I don’t know about breast cancer, but I know of one person that waited at least 12 weeks for radiation therapy after having a lymph node removed.  Do a search on Anahit Cilinger.

Back in 2000, there was a class action law suit filed against 12 hospitals in Quebec for 10,000 women regarding unacceptable wait times of over 8 weeks for radiation treatment after breast surgery.

Fact: At that time, Princess Margaret Hospital in Toronto considered asking patients to sign waivers stating they understood the risk of waiting for treatment. Instead, they gave them several options, one of which was to come to the U.S. for treatment.

Fact: During this period, several provinces sent 800 women to the U.S. for radiation treatment.

By 2003 the average wait time for this treatment was still 10 weeks although this was an improvement from the previous decade.

Wait times in Canada are determined by consensus, not by necessity. That’s the very nature of socialism.

As a general rule, Americans do not trust government . . . any government . . . period. That is the very basis of the founding of our country and the meaning of our Constitution. History has repeatedly shown there is no such thing as a benevolent government. They do not exist. The more control you relinquish to government, the less freedom you have.

In the case of health care, I do not want to be forced to accept UHC because I don’t want the government doing study after study after study on how many people will be lost if the wait time for certain procedures becomes 8 weeks, or whatever. Consensus is no way to run health care.

When any government has to continuously debate wait times for medical treatment for decades on end, I wouldn’t trust them to fix anything, especially me.

Care was excellent, three day hospital stay, tests, and surgery cost me ~$700.

see...that same procedure would cost me *nothing*.  and i’d have top quality treatment in a timely manner (i live in Ontario, not Quebec.  each province is different).

the more i read here, the more i am thankful NOT to be american.

see...that same procedure would cost me *nothing*.

So none of the taxes you pay goes towards your healthcare system.

the more i read here, the more i am thankful NOT to be american.

I’m thankful you aren’t too.  We don’t need another idiot voting.

Guess what estrojenn, you may have paid $1,500 or more in taxes for that $700 surgery.

One thing that is becoming clearer to me as this debate goes on is how ill-informed some people are about financial matters.  Just because you walk out of hospital without having to pay doesn’t mean you didn’t pay for that medical care over the years.  I’ve yet to figure out how paying thousands of dollars into a system for decades just to get $700 worth of medical care constitutes a free service.

Similarly you could argue that your apartment, with all utilities paid, is “free” cuz you pay rent via direct deposit.

But unlike yer neighbor, who bought a house, after 30 years you own exactly zip, while they own a house.

Sure, things could go wrong and yer neighbor could be forced to refinance, or sell their property and wind up in an apartment, too. I just don’t see how the apartment dweller, well, pwns the homeowner in any way....

they manufacture a war and send their citizens into it with a signed death warrant.

This from the person who was adamant about facts, not opinions…

see...that same procedure would cost me *nothing*.

So none of the taxes you pay goes towards your healthcare system.

Thanks for pointing that out, Buzzion.  I was wondering if estrojenn realized what she was saying.

see...that same procedure would cost me *nothing*.

It’s quite possible that Estrogen doesn’t pay taxes in the Canadian System.

Do you have a job?  Are you in fact one of the main reasons the Canadian system hemorrhages money and is forced to impose wait times as a means to control demand?

I am a Canadian, and this is the first time I have visited this site, after seeing “Sicko” last night. I’m not here to argue whether or not the movie is accurate or inaccurate in its discussion of the current state of health care in different countries around the globe. Here is what I have to say though:

Any intelligent person, which I am assuming (maybe mistakenly) that everyone commenting on this site is, should have enough common sense to realize there are flaws and problems with EVERY health care system in the world - just like there are flaws with all legal systems, education systems, etc. This is a fact. No country, to my knowledge, or in my opinion, has attained perfection in the area of health care for its citizens.

Frankly, I came here looking for intellectual debate, but it seems many of you are just here to lower and debase yourselves with name calling and finger pointing reminiscent of playground politics. (My dad’s stronger than your dad!!!...Oh yeah?!?!? My country has a better health care system!!!) Please. Aren’t you all adults here? Act like it. There are strong points to both the Canadian and American health care systems, and also, both have flaws. To sit here and argue which country has better health care, through only using partial facts and horror stories that fit your particular purpose to prove your point is a waste of time, in my opinion.

Perhaps, just perhaps, instead of bitching at one another over who is “better” you can be thankful for living in two of the greatest countries in the world, which provide amazing access to things like education and health care that isn’t even dreamed of in countries less forunate than our own.

And by the way, cursing and swearing at each other doesn’t improve the quality of your argument. I have to laugh though, at the amount of hateful language, as everyone signed the agreement to be able to comment here, which states that if you post here, “you agree not to post any messages that are deemed obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, [or] threatening” and that you should “try to act with as much dignity and respect as you would as if you were walking into our living room and having a cup of coffee and a nice chat.”

Furthermore, “If you are registering to this site with the intent of creating chaos, personally attacking the writers, or being generally obnoxious, you will most likely be banned without warning very quickly.” Ha ha ha. I guess the creator of this site has a very loose definition of “obnoxious.”

However, I don’t blame anyone for not adhering to these standards set out for you, as the creator himself calls people things like a “bat shit crazy leftie.” Is that how you treat people who come to your house for a cup of coffee? Weird. You must not have a lot of repeat visitors.

In any case, my rant is done. Try treating each other with a little more civility and tact, and stop making ludicrous claims about one country being better than another. I don’t think I’ll visit here again as I don’t think I can tolerate the crap that is flowing out of many of you.

(I apologize to people from other nations involved in this discussion group - I realize that more countries than just Canada and the U.S. are involved, but these are the countries that are being focused on).

Firstly, let me admit, freely, that every health care system has flaws and shortcomings. The key, in my opinion, is to learn from them and to try to come up with systems that are responsive to national peculiarities and needs. That having been said, consider the following.

In 2002, Canadians spent 9.6% of GDP on a health care system that covers every single resident. This was just slightly higher than the OECD average of 8.5% of GDP. That same year, the US spent 14.6% of GDP on health care in a system that had, at that time, about 35 million uninsured participants and, by most estimates, a roughly equal number of under-insured.

Interestingly, in 2002, both Canada and the US spent about the same on the public portions of their systems—6.7% of GDP for Canada and 6.6%$ for the US. The major difference was the private system. That year, Americans spent about 8% of GDP on private health care whereas Canadians spent about 2.9%

Now, I understand that Americans hate their government and that they feel that the government could never be trusted. That’s fair enough. Given that, though, I think the fundamental question remains. Why is it that Americans pay far more for health care than any other country in the world while such a substantial fraction of them are uninsured or underinsured?

Chart of health care expenditures among OECD countries, 2002

This study shows that the Canadian system is fairly efficient in terms of buying a basket of medical services. The country was ranked 13th in the OECD in gross expenditures but, in terms of Peak Purchasing Power, it provided the 6th most valuable basket of services. This suggests that single-payer systems can be efficient.

Finally, according to comprehensive studies by the National Forum on Health, if we restrict our analysis to only those services that are considered medically necessary (excluding elective and cosmetic surgery, for example), the predominantly publicly-funded, single-payer system is demonstrably more efficient. (1. National Forum on Health. Canada health action: building on the legacy: the final report of the National Forum on Health. Vol 1. Ottawa: The Forum; 1997. and 2. National Forum on Health. Canada health action: building on the legacy: synthesis reports and issues papers. Vol 2. Ottawa: The Forum; 1997.)

Now, judging by the majority of posts on here, this contribution will probably be greeted with ideologically-motivated derision. There’s nothing I can do about that, I suppose. Nevertheless, I do think that all citizens of every country should be asking hard questions about the outcomes of their system to ensure that they are getting the maximum value for their dollar. I’m not presupposing that you or I are or that we are not. Simply, I think each of us needs to satisfy ourselves of that. I think even the most ideological among us would agree that examination and discussion are always appropriate and worthwhile.

In closing, I also think there is some utility in using gross statistics such as infant mortality and life expectancy to measure outcomes. I think it fair to insist that countries that pay the most for health care should also have the best outcomes. So, in the end, ask yourself if you are satisfied with the rates of infant mortality, etc, based on what you pay. OK, discuss amongst yourselves, now! :-)

Catherine, are you really under the assumption that your rant was anything less than an all-out attack without the honesty of swearing?

You’re a massive hypocrite, and it’s obvious you read almost nothing at this website.  Thanks for demonstrating how a Moore fan will snap to judgment with no research or facts whatsoever.

Like we needed that confirmed.

I also think there is some utility in using gross statistics such as infant mortality

As long as the gross statistics are all gathered using the same methods.

The data presented by Moore regarding infant mortality is NOT.  The US uses a different methodology than the countries to which Moore compares us, rendering the comparison completely useless.