Schröder was mainly pandering to his electorate in the run up to the Second invasion of Iraq.  He was in a good situation (politically) by refusing to help the Coalition both with the social democratic youth and the greens in Germany.  He also knew that he would not be standing alone in opposition, thanks to France and Russia (With considerable money interests in Saddam’s Iraq.)

What was really sick was that the Social Democrats used pictures of flag draped coffins as an electoral ad poster to point out that the government kept them out of that “mess” in Iraq. 

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2005/09/election_campai.html

I imagine that the greens must be really excited about their former governing coalition partner working for oil companies now.

Morris: if you took the time to research on this website you would find the appropriate place to discuss the gassing of Iranians and Kurds and where those supplies came from.  But you probably would oversee the facts staring you in the face

Posted by Morris:
Last time, I check, 30,000 Iraqis and 2,000 Americans didn’t die because of Schroeder. Not to mention the Kurds and Iranisn who got gassed when Saddam was our ally.

Last time I checked, according to the Left, over a million Iraqis, a great deal children, died under the sanctions that were the backbone of the Oil for Food Program [remember all that whining about how this was hurting the Iraqis?].

Well NOW we know that the reason these people died was because sleaze like Gerhard Schröder were taking the money--the food from these people’s mouths--to line their pockets by defrauding the Oil For Food Program.

Hmmm… America w/32,000+ v. Schröder/1,000,000+.

Yeah, really freakin’ humanitarian there.

In Gerhard Schröder’s defense though, his prior handlings with oil do make him competent to work in his new job, so at least noone can throw around the accusation of cronyism.

I neglected to mention that the people who died in Iraq while Saddam was our ally was due to the fact we needed the scumbag to counter the U.S.S.R. (who’s death count, even after going out of existence in the previous century, hold the record in human history) to preserve the democracy world-wide.

Doesn’t make it right, of course, but compare that with allowing MORE people to die so the Europeans could line their pockets.

So typical of the Moore crowd--when America makes money in the course of business: it’s bad. When Europe makes money in the course of genocide: it’s all Bush’s fault, and ‘pay no attention to the socialist sleeze collecting his kick-back job.’

There’s always an angle.

Last time, I check, 30,000 Iraqis and 2,000 Americans didn’t die because of Schroeder.

Is this a sign of the libera breakdown (or just plain ignorance by Morris).  Like Stewart said, whatever happened to the 100,000 number (and that number was from 2004)?

While this latest revelation does not surprise me about Germnay, it also comes to no surprise that Morris comments are another drive-by attempt… Has anyone seen him engage in an actaul debate with anyone?

Last time, I check, 30,000 Iraqis and 2,000 Americans didn’t die because of Schroeder.

I think you could argue otherwise - at least in part.  I was thinking back to previous conflicts - In WWI & WWII, we presented a unified front - the US & our Allies - and any opposing views were, rightfully, considered treasonous.  It would have been outrageous for any U.S. Citizen or allied citizen to speak on behalf of the enemy, or sympathize with them.  However, today we see thousands of U.S. Citizens sympathizing with our country’s enemies, and some of our European neighbors doing the same.

Imagine in the previous conflicts, if the allies of the US hadn’t stood up to fight our / their enemies, as some have chosen to do now.  How long would those conflicts have gone on, and how many more deaths, combat & civilian would have occurred?

Imagine if Germany, France, Russia, and others stood WITH the U.S. in this fight - presenting a unified front against Terrorism and its perpetrators?  Would their be fewer deaths?  Would their be less resistance?  One could argue that possibility because our enemy would see no ‘cracks in the armor’ - no division of loyalty. 

So in this “war against terrorism and its supporters” - I do put some blame on Schroeder & the other world leaders of countries who are just as susceptible to the effects of terrorism as we are.  Their lack of support and lack of involvement in this war, I believe, have created gaps that may have created greater death and injury counts than if they’d been involved and provided a greater show of unity amongst the world’s countries.

Morris is just a troll folks.  He is throwing his poop against the wall to see if it sticks.  Just ignore him and he will go away.  Trying to refute him with anything as tricky as facts will not sway Moore-ons like him.

JRLinGREENBAY wrote:

Imagine if Germany, France, Russia, and others stood WITH the U.S. in this fight - presenting a unified front against Terrorism and its perpetrators?  Would their be fewer deaths?  Would their be less resistance?  One could argue that possibility because our enemy would see no ‘cracks in the armor’ - no division of loyalty. 

I think this is one of the best statements on Moorewatch in a while.  I think some of it comes down to there are two types of countries in Europe.  Those that talk and those that do.  The only country that does anything is England.  Counting on the rest to do anything is a risky proposition at best. 

But yes I think has the western powers showed a united front against the militant Muslims and terrorism we might be in a different position today.  But in regards to Iraq it was never in the best interests of France and Russia to do anything but support Hussein.  He was their client.  He was giving them monies.  A regime change would be a disaster for those countries.  Suddenyl an oil source is in question.  Suddenly a buyer is gone.  Suddenly a monetary source thank to food-for-oil is gone.

The white flag left loves to tout that the Iraq conflict is about money and oil.  Perhaps it is.  But they completely forget the fact that Hussein’s supporters in France and Russia were FAR more transparent in their motives than the United States.

Hey guys. Enjoy the posts on here. I am a in the middle of the road man myself. Sometimes i agree sometimes i disagree. But can i say one thing. If someone disagrees with you about your statements/opinions and what not why not leave the damn personal attacks at home and try to prove their statements wrong.  Its making you all sound like more like
e.g.
Morris is just a troll folks.  He is throwing his poop against the wall to see if it sticks.  Just ignore him and he will go away.  Trying to refute him with anything as tricky as facts will not sway Moore-ons like him.

So typical of the Moore crowd--when America makes money in the course of business: it’s bad. When Europe makes money in the course of genocide: it’s all Bush’s fault, and ‘pay no attention to the socialist sleeze collecting his kick-back job.’

But you probably would oversee the facts staring you in the face

Or maybe you all trying to look like facists.

Hey guys. Enjoy the posts on here. I am a in the middle of the road man myself. Sometimes i agree sometimes i disagree. But can i say one thing. If someone disagrees with you about your statements/opinions and what not why not leave the damn personal attacks at home and try to prove their statements wrong.  Its making you all sound like more like
e.g.
Morris is just a troll folks.  He is throwing his poop against the wall to see if it sticks.  Just ignore him and he will go away.  Trying to refute him with anything as tricky as facts will not sway Moore-ons like him.

So typical of the Moore crowd--when America makes money in the course of business: it’s bad. When Europe makes money in the course of genocide: it’s all Bush’s fault, and ‘pay no attention to the socialist sleeze collecting his kick-back job.’

But you probably would oversee the facts staring you in the face

Or maybe you all trying to look like facists.

You’re kidding, right?  Pleased tell me that you’re joking. 

You honestly think that we should continuously entertain idiots like Morris who post stupid, asinine and uninformed comments that are invariably off-topic and have already been proven false time after time after time?  In other words, we should be infinitely patient with every single idiot that shows up and does the same thing as the many idiots that have come before them, or we are facists. 

Sounds like a real middle-of-the-road thought process to me!

If you don’t then what makes you different than him. You could disprove his point easily making him seem like a bigger idiot but when you are reduced to name calling at the end of your statements about him you come off more elite and more of an self-absorbed asshole than morris.

Also i withdraw the facist comment my morning coffee wasn’t here yet and that was stupid of me.

Anyways keep posting stuff I am enjoying it like i said.

If you don’t then what makes you different than him. You could disprove his point easily making him seem like a bigger idiot but when you are reduced to name calling at the end of your statements about him you come off more elite and more of an self-absorbed asshole than morris

Stick around a little longer (or at least read alot of the past posts… usually what happens with someone like Morris, Hmmmmm, or solo, is that they make these wildly insane and ignorant claims that have been dispelled countless times, however, someone, still takes the time to disprove them in which case, they make another claim jsut as absurd as the previous, completely ignoring the person who disproved them..

Eventually, we’ve (or maybe just some) will ignore these trolls becuase they bring no substance to this forum.  This is a stark cointrast from someone like up4debate, who, while opposiong most of this site’s views, engages in intelligent ‘back-and-forth’ debate

In addition, if you willingly want to pick up one of Morris’ aborted arguments, im sure someone will be willing to engage with you (it’s people like morris that we ignore, if he seriously wanted to know the answers to what he was asking, then hed stick around, and people would answer him).

Come on jonas, look at the crap he’s spewing.  There’s no need to make him look like a bigger idiot than he already is by actually addressing the old debunked information he’s spewing.  Better to ignore him and hope he disappears.

There wouldn’t be any sanctions if there hadn’t been a war, because we had supplied Saddam with weapons, so no dice.

Yea, right.  Since you’re such an expert, why don’t you list some of the tanks, APCs, planes, helicopters, artillery, small arms and missiles that the U.S. supplied to Saddam?

Since you’re such an expert, why don’t you list some of the tanks, APCs, planes, helicopters, artillery, small arms and missiles that the U.S. supplied to Saddam?

And his response to this request for factual information to back up his claims will be posted in 5....4....3....2....

I ain’t no expert but i found this:

Julian Borger and Jamie Wilson in Washington
Tuesday May 17, 2005
The Guardian

The United States administration turned a blind eye to extensive sanctions-busting in the prewar sale of Iraqi oil, according to a new Senate investigation.

A report released last night by Democratic staff on a Senate investigations committee presents documentary evidence that the Bush administration was made aware of illegal oil sales and kickbacks paid to the Saddam Hussein regime but did nothing to stop them.

The scale of the shipments involved dwarfs those previously alleged by the Senate committee against UN staff and European politicians like the British MP, George Galloway, and the former French minister, Charles Pasqua.

The rest is here

Julian Borger and Jamie Wilson in Washington
Tuesday May 17, 2005
The Guardian

i repeat:

The Guardian

thats funny because i thought the org. article was from the guardian so if you discount mine than you must discount the org article which makes the discussion here void and null.

I never discounted the article, but i do take everything the say with a grain of salt....  Much like this artcile Lee posted, i have a difficult time taking anytihng that the guardian says as fact.  I havent read your article, and until i do, i wont know if it holds up to a bit of research… but the source alone brings doubt to me

(it is probably the same if i told you that i recieved some facts from Karl Rove...youd immediatley be skeptical until you could verify them...correct?)

jonas - If you are newer to this site, you will see over time that there are people like Morris who come to this site, make a short statement, then leave. Whenever there is a forum on a topic, they do not engage in a intelligent discussion about the topic. They make a statement not backed by facts, then retreat. So those who have been around for awhile get tired of these tactics and don’t want to hear from them. If Morris would just submit a factual argument, he would be listened to. I have no problem hearing from the LEFT as I feel I have some things to learn from them. At the same time, I don’t want them wasting space on this site unless they are going to make legitimate argument. That is not being facist, that is using this site for what it was meant for: open discussion.
As far as the name calling is concerned, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck…

Along the lines of this forum, I have to say that the other day I was watching Meet the Press and Madelene Albright (I think that’s how you spell her name) was on. She stated that George W. Bush and the Iraq War has hurt our relations with the world and we need to work on rebuilding those relationships. I had to pick myself up off of the ground from laughing at this continuing argument from the LEFT.
Assuming that their is even some truth to the article from the Guardian, it only further makes me laugh at Ms. Albights assertion. Of course these countries are upset with us and disagreed with our choice of going to war, they had a financial interest in Iraq. Who says money isn’t important in this world? The difference between our interests in Iraq and our “former” European friends is that we ousted Saddam for the safety of the Iraqi people AND our own while our friends interest was money.
By the way Lee, of course no mention of this oil controversy in Germany will not be heard of in our country because our liberal media would never give any fuel to the Conservative fire that supports the War. Our media report that Germany’s own chancellor is taking a job for oil after rebuking us for our so-called “War for Oil”? Again, I laugh.

Morris…

There wouldn’t be any sanctions if there hadn’t been a war, because we had supplied Saddam with weapons, so no dice.

Article #1

“Russia, France and China supplied most of Saddam’s weapons (nearly $100 billion worth) between 1972 and 1990”

Bar Chart

So, yeah, we supplied a whopping 1% of his weapons.

Article #2

“The propaganda spun by the far left is false. The facts show that Iraq is armed with a wide range of weapons—none of which came from the U.S.”

I could go on, depending on how thick you choose to be.

“No dice”, indeed.

Now they’re dying because Halliburton is defrauding them.

Are you utterly incapable of an original thought, or are you only capable of drinking Liberal Kool-Aid and spout off Liberal Talking Points (which have already been thoroughly debunked)????

What’s your point?

Back at’cha.

Last time, I check, 30,000 Iraqis and 2,000 Americans didn’t die because of Schroeder.

You are right for once! they didn’t die because of Schroeder, they died because of Islamic Terrorist.

There wouldn’t be any sanctions if there hadn’t been a war, because we had supplied Saddam with weapons, so no dice.

So in 91 the T-72’s, BIP2 and BMP1’s, BRDM’s HIND’, HIP’s, AK-47’s (with Russian stamping) RPG’s all came from the US? You have gotten something confused haven’t you?

Now they’re dying because Halliburton is defrauding them.
What’s your point?

How? How is Hilliburton defrauding anyone? Please prove you point when making claims like this. What you are claiming is in fact a federal and international offence you do realize that don’t you?

Morris-- *whew* Cbass almost took every point I was going to use to refute you with. LOL That’d be no fun.

I think the best one though is the most obvious, in that, to paraphrase the old quote, “weapons don’t start wars--people do.” It’s somehow America’s, or even Bush’s fault that Sadamm invaded Kuwait? Even if you DID blame those nasty weapons, as Cbass and Mulchie already noted, it’s AGAIN the fault of *gasp* the same folks that robbed the Oil For Food Program (including our old friend Russia)!

And even if it WAS somehow, in some warped way, America’s fault that the first Gulf War started (we’ll say, arguendo, that 1% or less of Iraq’s weapons makes America 100% culpable) then how on earth does that excuse the curruption that cost, what the Left cites, as over a million lives--of which Schröder had a hand in?

Or is it Bush’s fault the Europeans, including our pal Schröder, robbed the Oil For Food Program blind?

To quote Cbass, ‘ “No dice”, indeed. ‘

Now they’re dying because Halliburton is defrauding them.
What’s your point?

Well, arguendo [since the U.N. itself backs up my take on the Oil For Food scandal, whereas what you “cite” is political spin with no evidence to show that Halliburton either a) defrauded anybody and b) that such alleged fraud resulted in anyone’s death], assuming what you say is true, I’d say there’s 2 major points:

1. Any alleged opportunism elsewhere has resulted in nowhere near the harm as the Oil For Food scandal [the U.N. believes as many as 3,000 Iraqis a month were dying under the sanctions, which we know was because the money was siphoned off via the kick-back system] where people were being allowed to die to line corrupt countries pockets. Blood for Oil indeed.

2. As Lee said:

That’s right, folks.  Germany’s white knight for peace just committed a more overtly pro-oil act than anything Bush has done during his five years in office.  And you won’t hear a fucking peep about it from Michael Moore or any of the rest of the apoplectic Bush haters.

And we won’t hear about this one last(?) kickback for Schröder --not from Moore or the Mooreons. They have their template. All we’ll get is more attacks on Bush, more attacks against Halliburton, more attacks on MooreWatch, more moral equivalence between murderers and the people there to help, and more and more spin and distraction until the totality of the Oil For Food scandal and the death it caused fades from public memory.

There wouldn’t be any sanctions if there hadn’t been a war, because we had supplied Saddam with weapons, so no dice.

Care to rethink your “point”, Morris? (.pdf link)

http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/IRQ_IMPRTS_73-03.pdf

Schröder has been getting hit hard lately because of all this. His own party here in Germany is demanding he make public his contract. The opposing party is demanding that Schröder open his finincial records to the public. Schröder the arrogant ass that he is is only laughing all this off.

Jonas,

Regarding Morris, I understand what you’re trying to say.  But let’s be honest here, Morris likes being called names.  In fact, he relishes his position here as this website’s resident moron.  Thread after thread he appears with yet more mindless left-wing propaganda, some of it so far removed from reality only Barbra Streisand would believe it.  And thread after thread he gets called names, yet he returns over and over again to get his fair share of abuse.

Morris’ biggest problem is that he thinks we’re as dumbed down as he is.  It never occurred to Morris that Iraq was one of the Arab Nations that attacked Israel during the 6-Day War, and it never occurred to him that we then broke diplomatic ties with Iraq for almost 2 decades while that country build up the 4th largest conventional military force on the planet.  It never crossed Morris’ mind to read the actual history.  Instead, he’s an “American-Iraq foreign policy expert” because he reads, believes, then spreads mindless propaganda he gathers from the Internet.

Morris never questioned the timing of when this BS story got started.  He never checked to see where the story originated.  And he certainly didn’t have any evidence to prove it was true, because it isn’t.  Instead, Morris just left his brain in off mode, and literally posted everything he knows about America’s foreign policy concerning Iraq from 1967 to 1991 in one single sentence.

The point is Morris doesn’t care if it’s true or not.  If he did, he wouldn’t post crap like this. He just needs his daily MooreWatch abuse.

Meanwhile, it never occurs to Morris that with every post he makes he defeats his own purpose by being so completely uninformed and unaware.  What better illustration of how bankrupt his side has become than our own resident moron, Morris himself?

So Jonas, just consider Morris a special case.