And isn’t it interesting how Madonna, such an outspoken critic of America to the point that she actually left (thereby at least having more gumption than most of them), still says America’s the best place to be to have a baby.

Go see the movie, if you haven’t already and if you haven’t how the hell can you comment and hope, just hope, this doesn’t happen to your family.

WOW, another really informed Mooreon. Imagine that.

So what, Moore has free speech but we don’t?

Jesus.  Another idiotic Moore-on who didn’t bother to take five seconds to look at this site before mouthing off.  Do they grow these idiots on a farm somewhere?  How can there be so many who all say the same dumb shit?

The world is full of completely stupid people.  A lot of them think Michael Moore is a genius, thus proving their stupidity.

Two women who could afford to buy their own hospitals both choose to come back to the world’s 37th worst healthcare system to give birth to their stupidly-named spawn.  I wonder why that could be?

Two words: Starbucks

Two women who could afford to buy their own hospitals both choose to come back to the world’s 37th worst healthcare system to give birth to their stupidly-named spawn.  I wonder why that could be?

I think you answered your own question. Because they are rich!!! 

I dont believe that the US could be ranked 37th strictly based on what services are available.  If money is not an issue, Im sure it would be ranked #1.  One of the top poker players in the world dropped his insurance and pays cash for everything for his daughter who has a significant medical condition.  He did have insurance, tried various policy changes, but always ran into road blocks to treatment.  So he just dropped it all together.  I guess he is just lucky that he does well enough that it isnt a huge problem for him.

Personally, I think those of you who… are not open minded enough

Thank you, Austinite, for making me ashamed to be an Austinite.  And for proving the point I made the other day about people who claim to be open-minded.

EAT THE RICH! SELL THEIR CHILDREN TO FINANCE UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!

Good comeback Rann.  Perfect.  Thats certainly one way to contribute!

Two women who could afford to buy their own hospitals both choose to come back to the world’s 37th worst healthcare system…

If cutting-edge medical technology was the only determinant, then no, the US wouldn’t be ranked 37th. And, considering the amount of money those two have, they don’t really have to worry about whether their HMO has approved use of a particular hospital or was some procedure pre-approved etc., etc.

If I had loads of cash, I’d go to the US for all my medical treatment too. For that matter, who wouldn’t?

Is being ranked 37th fair? Or even close to accurate?

Well, we can argue that all day—and it has been already, on this site—how much one factor should be weighted against another, differences in how countries report statistics, bias on behalf of the researchers as to what constitutes “good” healthcare, etc., etc., and probably not come to an agreement on that one. But, honestly, 37th sounds a bit harsh to me. You got a raw deal there.

...to give birth to their stupidly-named spawn.

LOL yeah I’m with you on that… what is up with those kids’ names? ;)

bobbyjoe wrote: Whats the point of this blog?

Why don’t you spend less time talking shit and more time READING IT and maybe you’ll find out.

try going past the front page.  Just once or twice.

up4debate wrote: Good comeback Rann.  Perfect.  Thats certainly one way to contribute!

This from the guy who’s last few contributions were one-line snarky jokes?

Physician, heal thyself.

Good comeback Rann.  Perfect.  Thats certainly one way to contribute!

It wasn’t even aimed at you specifically. Drop the persecution complex.

I’ll be straight with you, and admit upfront that I am someone that you could have once called a ‘Moore-on/Moron’—I thought that F9/11 and Bowling for Columbine raised serious issues, and I flailed madly, foaming at the mouth, at anyone who disagreed.

Anyway, I’ve since grown out of my delusions, particularly with the help of SiCKO.

I live in the UK, have for 5 years, previously living in Australia. I’ve had some experience with the UK health care system, as a patient and also as someone watching another (in this case, my wife and my father in law) go through treatment.

As myself: do not believe, from Moore’s film, that all is rosy with the NHS. If I am sick today, and I call the doctor to make an appointment (this being my local GP, not the hospital), then typically I need to wait at least 9 working days before I can get an appointment. Typically, it’s 14 working days (no weekend openings here). This may not be the case everywhere, but as it’s been the same for the last 5 years, I’m guessing it’s pretty standard.

My father-in-law is currently recovering from prostate cancer. While his first operation was fine, he soon developed a hernia where his stomach muscles, after the operation (they cut him belly to post!), gave way. You can imagine the result of that. Anyway, it took over a YEAR before he was scheduled for a corrective operation. That went fine, except his wound turned septic—despite him complaining of the wound weeping, both his surgeon and his GP at the hospital said it was nothing out of the ordinary and sent him home. Soon that wound was breaking its stitches, and opening up. On it goes.

While the one good incident (my wife being able to get immediate treatment at an NHS hospital when she miscarried last year), generally the NHS is seen (by people I speak to) as a breeding ground for disease, incompetent doctors, and nurses who are worked into the ground to the point where some of them just don’t care.

We have a real problem of ‘health tourism’ here, where people from throughout the EU and elsewhere are arriving to get treatment through the NHS (why? I guess the hospitals here have to be better than SOME countries’, right?).

I support universal health care, but considering I pay out over £100 a month from my wages in National Insurance (which goes towards unemployment benefits for terrorists in training, pensions that I probably will never see before they’re raided to pay for the NHS, and then the NHS itself) I’d rather save my money and pay for private cover. Unfortunately I have no choice in that - if I want to pay for private cover, that £100 is coming out of my wages regardless.

Right. Sorry for ranting - carry on :D

Wait.  You pay a hundred pounds a month for NHS?  That’s within pennies of $200 US.

Holy crap.  That’s what many commercial, private plans cost in the US.

Wow.  Moore never told me that in Sicko.  I wonder why?

No, wait - the £100 covers NHS, *and* the benefits system (unemployment, etc), and the state pension scheme. So no, I don’t pay £100 for the NHS/healthcare itself.

However the majority of funding for the NHS is from national insurance, and since many NHS trusts are haemorrhaging money let’s assume a pile of it is being poured back in from NI contributions.

See http://www.southwark.tv/spag/spagNIFund.asp for more info.

I’m trying to find a chart of the exact breakdown of % paid to various services.

This from the guy who’s last few contributions were one-line snarky jokes?

That last one was 6 lines.  :P

It wasn’t even aimed at you specifically. Drop the persecution complex.

I didnt think it was.  I thought it was aimed at me, biafra and bobby joe.  Or I guess anyone who was trying to show that Lees question wasnt very difficult to answer.  I know what you are saying, you are trying to say we must dislike rich people (wow, someone not from the left defending Madonna and Gwenyth!).  Thats not it at all. 

Like Lee talked about in a previous post (Indicative, Not Exceptional), describing typical Moore tactics of using extreme cases and trying to pass them off as the norm.  Lee is doing the very same thing here.  People choosing (and receiving!) US health care from all options is exceptional, not indicative. 

This thread is like saying, look, Wyclef Jean bought a McLaren F1, and he knows a thing or two about cars, so it must be a very good car!  But in this case, the suggestion is that it would be a very good car for anyone (with or without the means to procure such a vehicle).  Its a little misleading.  Kinda like the things you blame MM for.

Although Moore does not state in the movie ‘Sico’ that UHC is perfect, he only states that it is a better system than what we have here in the US.  I spend a fortune on health care and we are a healthy family.  I would suspect that if we had UHC my taxes would go up, but then I wouldn’t have to spend so much on health care.  I am for UHC because I know if my husband suffered a heart attack, it would financially ruin us.  Health care should be for everyone, not just for the rich.

you answered your own question--paltro and madonna can afford their own hospitals.  the rest of us stuck in this heinous, insurance hell unfortunately cannot.

Posted by nurse on 07/02/2007 at 09:16 PM (Link to this comment | )
you answered your own question--paltro and madonna can afford their own hospitals.  the rest of us stuck in this heinous, insurance hell unfortunately cannot

Except, even if they could afford their own hospitals and so clearly can spend an ungodly amount of money for their medical care, why aren’t they getting that care from the doctors and medical technology in the UK?  Afterall, the UK does also have private medical insurance and such so since they are clearly so much better than america because of their socialized and private care, you would think that they would want to have their babies there, you know since its supposed to be better.

generally the NHS is seen (by people I speak to) as a breeding ground for disease, incompetent doctors, and nurses who are worked into the ground to the point where some of them just don’t care.

You’ve described almost every hospital in the world. But at least your hospitals aren’t releasing patients with dementia into the street to fend for themselves. 

Wait. You pay a hundred pounds a month for NHS? That’s within pennies of $200 US. Holy crap. That’s what many commercial, private plans cost in the US. Wow. Moore never told me that in Sicko. I wonder why?

Wow. He never told you that? Or was the point of the movie that those of us insured could help out those screwed by sacrificing mere pennies, the difference from the NHS cost.

greetings all.  i just saw the film last night.  i learned after “f911” that i should check the facts and get the whole story.  i’m here to clear up some things for myself. 

as far as this thread goes, i don’t think the film has anything to do w/ paltrow, madonna, or moore himself.  those 3 are loaded, and don’t have to worry about getting by on 29,000 a year.  so my opinion is that the original question was kind of irrelevant.  not trying to defend or offend, just pointing out that the movie is about those americans who HAVE healthcare but got screwed by the current system in place. 

the movie also doesn’t necessarily say (i don’t think) that the healthcare we provide sucks, it’s the way in which we provide coverage.  so if anyone in the world had his/her choice on where to have a baby, naturally they would say CUBA.  Just kidding!  i have nothing that backs this up, but i will say that i THINK that the U.S. has the BEST capability for treating probably 98% of all medical problems in the world.  no one touches our advances in medical tech and treatment.  but i do think there’s a whole lot wrong with the way we provide our coverage. 

i feel like i’m a little more informed than the average ‘sicko’ viewer simply because i know what mr. moore is all about.  i wouldn’t go so far to say he’s a genius, but he is f*cking BRILLIANT at making films that convey his message.  i don’t think many people can contest that, based on moore’s success and his reputation.  BUT, as i watch, i know that there’s going to be twisted truths and the like.  for instance, i had visited the UK a couple years ago, and i remember reading in the paper an article in which the writer was criticizing the NHS.  so i was a bit miffed when he used the them as an example of great healthcare.  it was kind of a, “but didn’t i read that the nhs...??” type of moment.  and even though i’ve never been to france, i KNOW that the average fam there doesn’t make whatever it was per year.  it was the same feeling i got while watching the scene in ‘f911’ where he depicted iraq w/ happy, frolicking children.  something didn’t quite add up, ya know?  so all that said, i know not to take everything he says as gospel--or maybe even hardly any of it. 

here’s where i’m concerned, though.  can everyone on this board agree that our healthcare system COULD be better, and that it IS fairly fucked up in many ways?  i don’t need michael moore to make me wonder “who are we” in regards to our intentions and compassion for our neighbors.  i’ve been wondering that for years since i was a child.  i do think that in america, we can do way better.  so i’m wondering what you all think should be done to provide better coverage for those who don’t have it or are struggling to keep it.  or is this the best we can do?  the great energy and intelligence on this site alone should be able to come up with something awesome. 

do people really get bonuses for denying people coverage?  that’s a really facty sounding fact.  i was looking for something on here that discounted that claim, and i read all day, so forgive me for not finding something.  there’s a lot of content on this site!  but that’s probably the single thing that really gets me fired up.  when that happens, that just tells me that there are americans who are ready to let their neighbor die to make a buck.  i know i don’t need to articulate the atrocity in that any further.  but does everyone agree that that’s ok if that indeed is what happens in insurance companies?  is it more important to be able to say that you made more money this year, or that you saved more lives this year?  so if someone can assure me that bonuses are never rewarded for withholding compensation, that’d be nice.

finally, i just want to make my own distiction about this site and the work it does.  i LOVE it when i read lee or anyone else tearing into moore’s TACTICS and how he looks at this and that and how moore did this with these facts and all that.  i love that.  i feel informed and i feel like i’m learning something.  what i don’t love, or what really doesn’t work for me is when anyone calls him a “fat bastard” or something like that.  i don’t really feel informed when people verbally abuse others on here calling them “stupid” or “asshole” or something like that.  it’s hard for me to acknowledge or appreciate anything else from that person when they say such base and ruthless things to another person expressing his/her opinion.  it’s kind of like reprimanding a child, letting them know that they themselves are not bad, but what they are DOING is bad.  i would suggest you treat mr. moore the same way--attack his behavior, not him.  yes, yes, i understand that if i don’t like it i can visit another website or move to france or something (haha), but i just wanted to throw that out there in an effort to acknowledge and perpetuate the great, intelligent work that people on here do, and promote a less hostile blog.  just a thought.  that goes for those posting comments, and anyone thinking about sending a piece of “hate” mail.  that’s all i have!  thanks.

woah.  that was ridiculously long!  won’t happen again!  :-)