if you look at the issues Michael Moore supports and/or has made movies on, they all have the unifying theme about how someone need to take care of the poor helpless “peepul”.

Just wait, Mike… it’ll get worse before it gets better.

When pressed on the subject matter of his next propaganda piece, he revealed that to determine what it would be about, you would only need to look at his previous films, and find the unifying thread.

So, far as I can guess, it’s going to be an unapologetic cry for across-the-board socialism in the U.S.A.

Gee… I can’t wait to shell out my 837,000 Pesos Cubanos to see that pile of garbage.

This is the thing that scares me most about socialized medicine—a generation of Americans growing up who expect the government to take care of them and, after it inevitably fails, not knowing what the hell to do with themselves.

Isn’t that EXACTLY the problem with social security, and how many people have expected to just be able to count on that rather than planning for their own retirement?

I started another thread about Norway and their system.  Eighty-six percent of their healthcare cost is paid by the taxpayer.  Here in the U.S. it’s about 40%.  Imagine where our taxes will have to go to pay for all of our citizens (not including the illegals)if we are to adopt a system like Norway’s.  The irony of your story Mike, is that Norway’s healthcare system is considered the model that is setting the standard for quality of care.

Norway is also considered to be one of the wealthiest countries in Europe, relying mostly on the production of petroleum oil.  Even so, right now they currently pay the equivilent of $9 USD per gallon of gas.  A glass of wine in one of their restaurants averages $16 USD.  And I haven’t mentioned their 25% sales tax on most consumer goods.  Yep, 25%.

Also, the additional taxes that their guvment puts on new cars basically doubles the cost of a new car.  In essence, a $25,000 car in the states would cost you in excess of $50 grand solely because of their taxes.  Another problem that the rural areas of Norway are experiencing is the shutting down of their hospitals as they’ve found the fiscal need to consolidate many of them.

I have to say that I’ve been living in Norway during the last 8 years, after living in the US for about 2 years.

Regarding the HC system in both countries, simply the US system has nothing to do with any Scandinavian HC system. As you mention in your post, there are “black holes” in the norwegian socialism, but the perfect HC system is unexistent.

So you should not play the same game as “Mr Moore” plays, standing out exactly what is of your interest… By the way, what has Norway to do with Michael Moore? Does it appear in any of his films? Sinceresly, I think this is an anti-socialism crusade…

Concerning the “nanny state”, it sounds very well what you propose; every individual must be responsible of his/her own acts, but I ask: in a free market culture, who protects the population from the multinational companies and their savage hungry of profit? Do the US HC companies have as their priority the customer satisfaction? No, they do not. Do you really think that big companies are not able to manipulate individuals with their marketing for example? Yeah, they do… In Norway there are also some laws that try to protect the population from deceitful publicity in TV… Are you also against this kind of measures?

Note: I’m nigerian, I’m not American and I’m not European, I’m not socialist and I’m not neoliberalist… I’m just a man who has eyes and critical mind.

but I ask: in a free market culture, who protects the population from the multinational companies and their savage hungry of profit? Do the US HC companies have as their priority the customer satisfaction? No, they do not.

Okay, let’s break the differences between the two systems down to their bare essence:

1) Free market, private health care - at the end of the day, the driving force behind all day-to-day decisionmaking is the desire to earn a profit.

2) Government-provided UHC - at the end of the day, the driving force behind all day-to-day decisionmaking is the need to keep the national budget balanced.

This is an extremely simplified distillation of the principles involved, but I ask you:  Which system do you think is more likely to encourage growth and innovation, strive to deliver a better product at a lower price, stimulate healthy competition and aim to keep its customers satisfied so they come back for more?  Simply put, if the private health care industry is driven by profit, then it has a vested interest in maintaining a high standard of production and service, lest its patrons seek out other options.  With government-provided UHC, those other options suddenly are out of reach (except, of course, for those few which are provided by the dreaded for-profit private enterprise).

Sinceresly, I think this is an anti-socialism crusade…

And Moore is on a socialism crusade.  So even though Moore may not point to Norway in his movies, (can you state with absolute certainty that he hasn’t mentioned it in his books, speeches, or website, this isn’t Moore’sFilmwatch)he is advocating a Healthcare system run by the government, and it is perfectly acceptable to point to the flaws into those systems to counter Moore.  Moore claims socialism would solve our problems, pointing out the lie to his claims is what is done.

Okay, let’s break the differences between the two systems down to their bare essence:

1) Free market, private health care - at the end of the day, the driving force behind all day-to-day decisionmaking is the desire to earn a profit.

2) Government-provided UHC - at the end of the day, the driving force behind all day-to-day decisionmaking is the need to keep the national budget balanced.

This is an extremely simplified distillation of the principles involved

Yes, very simplified, and very imcomplete. Budget balanced is necesary since budgets are not infinite; quite simple. But there is a big difference between both systems: the first one is equitable, asks for more money to the people that has more, and this way wealth is redistributed, reducing distances between different social classes.

but I ask you:  Which system do you think is more likely to encourage growth and innovation, strive to deliver a better product at a lower price, stimulate healthy competition and aim to keep its customers satisfied so they come back for more?

Do you really think that being a private company guarantees that the product being made is better? Microsoft is a very big private company that makes software, but I can demonstrate that their software is much more worst than others not-profit driven like Linux, so your theory is not valid, may be the socialist one neither…

And Moore is on a socialism crusade

I have always prefered pro-people than anti-people (this does not mean that I like Moore :-))

I have always prefered pro-people than anti-people (this does not mean that I like Moore :-))

Then consider us on a pro-capitalism, pro-individualism campaign. 

the first one is equitable

Based on what criteria?

and this way wealth is redistributed, reducing distances between different social classes.

Wealth redistribution is bullshit and wrong.  All men are created equal, not all outcomes are guarranteed to be equal.  Why do you believe that John Doe who works 50+ hours a week busting his ass off so he can provide a good life for his family by making a lot of money, deserves to have that money taken away from him so Bob the slacker who does work and wastes his life can have some of that money? 

Wealth redistribution seems based on the idea that the pie is only one size, so we need to make sure everyone gets an equal amount.  The pie can get bigger though so everyone can get more.

Then consi

der us on a pro-capitalism, pro-individualism campaign.

But I repeat, this is not what posts like this show, it looks completely like anti-scandinavian states campaign. People here (in Norway) is happy with their government (chosen by them, do not forget), and here people could choose other conservative options, but they simply don’t want.

Based on what criteria?

¿?

All men are created equal, not all outcomes are guarranteed to be equal.

That’s true. But it does not mean that transnational companies treat all men equal. Can you confirm this?

Why do you believe that John Doe who works 50+ hours a week busting his ass off so he can provide a good life for his family by making a lot of money, deserves to have that money taken away from him so Bob the slacker who does work and wastes his life can have some of that money?

First of all,working 50+ hours a week should be illegal, in order to protect people from exploitation. Do you agree with this?

Wealth redistribution seems based on the idea that the pie is only one size, so we need to make sure everyone gets an equal amount.  The pie can get bigger though so everyone can get more.

This is not true. Even in a socialized system, there is people that earn more money than others, but it is guaranteed that not so favored people will have their basic goods. But since you are so individualist, I think we will never agree. People in Norway is not like that. There comes a link about this subject from a friend of mine:

http://www.daria.no/skole/?tekst=4876

Not everything in Norway is so bad :-) Maybe there are things to learn from each other, don’t you think so?

I think you forgot answering this one:

Do you really think that being a private company guarantees that the product being made is better? Microsoft is a very big private company that makes software, but I can demonstrate that their software is much more worst than others not-profit driven like Linux, so your theory is not valid, may be the socialist one neither…

But I repeat, this is not what posts like this show, it looks completely like anti-scandinavian states campaign. People here (in Norway) is happy with their government (chosen by them, do not forget), and here people could choose other conservative options, but they simply don’t want

We’re not telling scandinavians what to do with their shit. We’re pointing out why we don’t want america to be like them. I think you’ve obviously got this projection complex where because all your criticisms based on america is because you want america to change those things, so you think when we criticize your country its the same reason. If people weren’t pointing at your system or systems like yours no one would be talking about your crap here.

That’s true. But it does not mean that transnational companies treat all men equal. Can you confirm this?

They don’t need to treat them equally. If I’m a better worker, smarter, more skilled, I would expect to be treated better than someone not as skilled as me. Now if someone is being treated unfairly, something needs to be done and the company can be punished. And you get to use the government to help with that.

First of all,working 50+ hours a week should be illegal, in order to protect people from exploitation. Do you agree with this?

No I don’t. If I want to work 50+ hours a week and make 10+ hours of overtime, then that’s a decision to make between me and my family. If I’m a fully salaried employee where they don’t offer overtime then I’ve likely been told that there are times where I may be working long hours to get a job done on time, and again that’s something between me and the company I work for.

This is not true. Even in a socialized system, there is people that earn more money than others

I recall someone once linking the public earnings of people in finland. Yeah there was a range of earnings for people, but the amount the highest paid person was earning was ridiculously low. A doctor shouldn’t be making only $10,000 more than a bus driver after taxes.

Maybe there are things to learn from each other, don’t you think so?

I’m not interested in someone trying to teach me that government is good and should be the provider for many things for me. I hear enough of that shit from democrats and republicans in congress.  I moved out of mommy and daddy’s house.

Do you really think that being a private company guarantees that the product being made is better? Microsoft is a very big private company that makes software, but I can demonstrate that their software is much more worst than others not-profit driven like Linux, so your theory is not valid, may be the socialist one neither…

I didn’t think I would need to answer this stupid question.  Also I don’t have to answer everything you ask.  But no Microsoft being a private company doesn’t guarantee that their product is better than others.  The glory of the free market though is that I don’t have to use Windows.  I can get an Apple.  Or I can use Linux.  But you notice that niether of these are government products.  Microsoft as a private company needs to make a product that will at least function well for many people.  Because if they put out a piece of shit no one will buy it or use it for very long and they would be out of business.  They aren’t a monopoly.  Government though is, especially when you willingly make them the single player in the market.

We’re not telling scandinavians what to do with their shit. We’re pointing out why we don’t want america to be like them.

Your swearwords have completely dissapointed me, and this is going to be my las post (I hope this is not what you was looking for).

No I don’t. If I want to work 50+ hours a week and make 10+ hours of overtime, then that’s a decision to make between me and my family. If I’m a fully salaried employee where they don’t offer overtime then I’ve likely been told that there are times where I may be working long hours to get a job done on time, and again that’s something between me and the company I work for.

This absence of regulation in the employment means a lot of things maybe you haven’t noticed. For example, if these crazy working days are allowed, a company could force a worker to fulfit them, because if he does not do it, any other worker will do it. What this regulation achieves, is more employment for more people, instead of one person working 50+ hours, there could be two people working, it’s just my opinion.

I recall someone once linking the public earnings of people in finland. Yeah there was a range of earnings for people, but the amount the highest paid person was earning was ridiculously low. A doctor shouldn’t be making only $10,000 more than a bus driver after taxes.

Differences in salaries are not a problem but purchasing power. If differences are not so big, but both workers have a good purchasing power based in an inflation control, I guess both them could be happy with their incomes (this is what happens in Norway)

I’m not interested in someone trying to teach me that government is good and should be the provider for many things for me. I hear enough of that shit from democrats and republicans in congress.  I moved out of mommy and daddy’s house.

I did not wanted to say this, but this comment says a lot about you. It is not a teaching problem. You could look other countries and say, well, I don’t like that system, but first you have to look.

Good luck
//Odell

awww you didn’t like me saying curse words.  I didn’t even direct swear words at you.  What are you going to do go cry to mommy and daddy government that I was using bad words? 

Hey genius, they’re not going to hire someone to do an additional 10 hours of work.  You’re an idiout on this subject.

Notice also how I’m not using swears now, but being much more insulting towards you.

I did not wanted to say this, but this comment says a lot about you. It is not a teaching problem. You could look other countries and say, well, I don’t like that system, but first you have to look.

I have looked.  And I’ve learned that government is not the solution to the problems.  I kind of doubt that you’re willing to learn that though.  When someone says “maybe we can learn something from eachother” it usually means “let me indoctrinate you to my way of thinking.” No thanks.

No curse words and a lot more insulting, are you happy you big baby?

I didn’t think I would need to answer this stupid question.  Also I don’t have to answer everything you ask.  But no Microsoft being a private company doesn’t guarantee that their product is better than others.  The glory of the free market though is that I don’t have to use Windows.  I can get an Apple.  Or I can use Linux.  But you notice that niether of these are government products.  Microsoft as a private company needs to make a product that will at least function well for many people.  Because if they put out a piece of shit no one will buy it or use it for very long and they would be out of business.  They aren’t a monopoly.  Government though is, especially when you willingly make them the single player in the market.

You forget something. Marketing. It creates symbolic associations between the product and the psychological condition of customers, addressing more and more towards a well known feeling of failure to adapt, aspiration of expectation.
Let’s talk about cleaning products; actually they are sold because they provide to customers the sensation of being selfless housewife, or maybe because they remind how things happened in someone’s house.
If this does not generates enough sales, marketing will re-direct the campaign, and generate anxiety to the customer, making people understand that their house is full of “hidden germs”, being able to infect at any moment to the house children.
Most of all-terraing vehicle have never been in the countryside, they are sold to people that want to be seen like aventurous, able to escape from urban life hindrances, and so on…

This is free market.

awww you didn’t like me saying curse words.  I didn’t even direct swear words at you.  What are you going to do go cry to mommy and daddy government that I was using bad words?

Hey genius, they’re not going to hire someone to do an additional 10 hours of work.  You’re an idiout on this subject.

Notice also how I’m not using swears now, but being much more insulting towards you.

I did not wanted to say this, but this comment says a lot about you. It is not a teaching problem. You could look other countries and say, well, I don’t like that system, but first you have to look.

I have looked.  And I’ve learned that government is not the solution to the problems.  I kind of doubt that you’re willing to learn that though.  When someone says “maybe we can learn something from eachother” it usually means “let me indoctrinate you to my way of thinking.” No thanks.

No curse words and a lot more insulting, are you happy you big baby?

I am not afraid of you. In fact, I could not be afraid of many things because my story is a story of fear, of hard work, and tragedies.

Hey genius, they’re not going to hire someone to do an additional 10 hours of work.  You’re an idiout on this subject.

Yes, but you forget that maybe there is more than 1 worker doing 50+ hours… So with 4 people with this schedule, one more worker can be hired. Very simple maths.

Marketing doesn’t matter.  I still have the choice to buy what I want.  Government controlled monopoly eliminates that choice.

Most of all-terraing vehicle have never been in the countryside, they are sold to people that want to be seen like aventurous, able to escape from urban life hindrances, and so on…

Or to the family with 3 kids that don’t want a minivan. 

And again, the choice is still there.  If I’m a sucker who succumbs to flashy advertising that’s my problem not the governments.

Marketing doesn’t matter. I still have the choice to buy what I want. Government controlled monopoly eliminates that choice. Most of all-terraing vehicle have never been in the countryside, they are sold to people that want to be seen like aventurous, able to escape from urban life hindrances, and so on… Or to the family with 3 kids that don’t want a minivan. And again, the choice is still there. If I’m a sucker who succumbs to flashy advertising that’s my problem not the governments.

Yeah!! But marketing works!! So there must be a lot of suckers like you.

that’s my problem not the governments.

Sometimes you forget that state=population, they are not separate things, they represent the same thing in a democratic state. So it’s a kind of self-protection.

Yes, but you forget that maybe there is more than 1 worker doing 50+ hours… So with 4 people with this schedule, one more worker can be hired. Very simple maths.

Not if those 4 tasks need to be completed simultaneously.  How is a single new employee going to simultaneously run 4 spots on an assembly line?  Very simple concept.  One you obviously were incapable of discovering.

And none of this has negated the point that this is a decision between the employee and the employer.  If the employee doesn’t want the overtime, and someone else does fine.  The employee is likely going to make more money than they normally would doing the same task.  And if you don’t want to work in the conditions where lots of overtime is a possibility then you can quit.

And if you’re in a union, they will likely have rules regarding overtime, negotiated with the company.  But again that’s between employers and employees.

who cares if marketing works?  The choice to listen to it or not still remains.  I can choose to buy a product I saw an ad for, or I can choose a more expensive one, or a cheaper one.  The choice is there.  If I have a need and I see an ad for a product that will provide that need, why are you having such a fit over it?

Lying little shit.

Your swearwords have completely dissapointed me, and this is going to be my las post (I hope this is not what you was looking for).

Odell, I personally will note that your posts have been remarkably sincere and very much in the spirit of friendly debate, and you are to be commended for this, as you have proven yourself to be a cut above a fair number of “opposition” commenters who visit this site simply to display their hopeless arrogance. Thank you for posting - I sincerely hope you will stick around, and not be put off by the occasional snark. If you’ve spent any time around here at all, you’ll notice that some of the regulars cuss like stableboys, and one or two, after a couple beers, occasionally run out of patience even with the most inoffensive of commenters.

This absence of regulation in the employment means a lot of things maybe you haven’t noticed. For example, if these crazy working days are allowed, a company could force a worker to fulfit them, because if he does not do it, any other worker will do it. What this regulation achieves, is more employment for more people, instead of one person working 50+ hours, there could be two people working, it’s just my opinion.

This is getting OT, but you have a faulty view of the issue. It should be noted that there are government regulations in place to prevent employees from being abused in the manner to which you refer. But these regulations do not in any way interfere with the personal choices of an employee, which is the point Buzzion was making…

And that comes back around to what this whole discusson is about: The ability to make personal choices about how many hours to work every week, what kind of computer OS to buy, and the quality and affordability of health care and coverage you get. I’ll highlight the last thing Buzzion said:

Microsoft as a private company needs to make a product that will at least function well for many people. Because if they put out a piece of shit no one will buy it or use it for very long and they would be out of business. They aren’t a monopoly. Government though is, especially when you willingly make them the single player in the market.

I use Microsoft products despite their flaws because, quite simply, as an average home user those flaws do not affect me. Furthermore their products are easy to use, and are more cross-compatible with the products of other manufacturers than Linux or Apple. And finally, it works better for me than a Mac or a Linux-based machine. In other words, I am satisfied with Microsoft’s products based on my own requirements.

Similarly, I am satisfied with the level of care I am able to get through the insurance provided for by my employer. And since the real thrust behind this discussion is a matter of coverage rather than of provision, it should be noted once again (for what is probably the umpteenth time) that in the US: 1) necessary treatment is rarely, if ever, denied due to an inability to pay, and; 2) if the recipient of treatment is uninsured and unable to pay (even in installments), there are options provided for by charity, by the providers themselves, and, yes, even by the government. Real hard-up case may find themselves paying off a collection agency in small monthly amounts for the rest of their lives, but nobody goes to jail over a delinquent hospital bill.

It is not a teaching problem. You could look other countries and say, well, I don’t like that system, but first you have to look.

And the point we’re trying to make here is that we have looked, and we don’t like.  Thanks very much.

edit: Wow, this conversation’s gone into overtime while I was constructing this post.

The squabble over marketing perplexes me.  All the clever marketing in the world won’t change the fact that a crappy product won’t get many return customers.

The Ronco corporation may crank out any number of “onesies” - that is, they can turn out a product that the average consumer only needs one of, market the bejiminies out of it to sell as many as possible to as many consumers as possible, and when it’s discovered to be nothing more than a plastic turd, retire that product and introduce another, equally inferior doo-dad, while the first one goes into the back corner of the kitchen cupboard.

But we’re not talking about night-lights and cheese graters, or mechanical mops, or even computer OS’s now - we’re talking about healthcare.  And the healthcare industry has an interest in developing and maintaining a long-term relationship with its customers (you know, doctors, patients...).  Furthermore, the government does require a certain amount of transparency and honesty in the marketing of prescription pharmaceuticals (which is why the ad in Reader’s Digest for the latest wonder-pill is sixteen pages long), and the bigger insurance companies generally have competitive policy plans which aren’t that different from one another except in their lists of authorized providers.  So I fail to comprehend how marketing has so great an impact in the HC industry to such a degree that it acts as a detriment to the average end-user (i.e., me).

Odell, in the future, please do not tell everyone you are leaving unless you plan to do it.  It makes taking you seriously a little difficult.  It’s kind of like a kid throwing a tantrum and saying he’ll hold his breath forever.

People swear.  Here, I swear a lot, and if you don’t like it, there’s the fucking door.  Argue the data and philosophies all you want, but seriously, get over the swearing.

Posted by Odell on 08/18/2007 at 05:26 AM (Link to this comment | )

the first one is equitable, asks for more money to the people that has more, and this way wealth is redistributed, reducing distances between different social classes.

Ahh, but if an equitable system is your most important goal (over say, having a better system that is not as equitable… but even people at the bottom do ok to well.. maybe even as well as people in a socialist system) then you are a socialist. Sorry. Just the way it is.

Socialists put this kind of forced equality at the top of their list of goods / goals.

Posted by Odell on 08/18/2007 at 08:09 AM (Link to this comment | )

Sometimes you forget that state=population, they are not separate things, they represent the same thing in a democratic state. So it’s a kind of self-protection.

We didn’t forget, we just don’t buy it. The state is an institution or organization. It has its own goals and they are not always in line with the publics. Getting bigger is usually one of it’s goals (bigger budgets, more staff, doing more things, getting more power, et cetera)… it markets these goals by creating arguments for bigger government…

Anyway, most corporation are made of up of members of the ‘population’. You may as well argue that corporations=citizens=the people/public/population… its silly.. As silly as saying the same about the state.

Socialists usually can’t understand that the state is not ‘the people’…

Posted by wakachiwaka on 08/18/2007 at 08:58 AM (Link to this comment | )

The squabble over marketing perplexes me.  All the clever marketing in the world won’t change the fact that a crappy product won’t get many return customers.

Carping about marketing is old lefty boilerplate going back to the 50s… because without it, to make an issue of, there wouldn’t be any need for them.... to protect us from it / the free market.

They’re not 100% wrong. People are talked into doing some illogical things by marketing… but all you can do is tell them and allow them to make the choice to reject it or be tricked by it. (I read The Hidden Persuaders in my teens and it had a big impact on me… you’ll never see me replace an appliance based on its color btw).. I also find it amusing that the people who bit*h about it the most tend to be the biggest blue city trendoids while the so called dumb sheeple buy stuff at walmart based on low price and quality matters… like usual, I wonder if projection is involved with the lefties…

sl0re, very good points about the similarities between corporations and governments.  The government uses marketing techniques frighteningly more efficient than most corporations.  How many times have you heard government officials screaming about budget cuts only to find out they just didn’t get the exact increase that they wanted.

A few years back I worked for a corporation where the board of directors brought in a new CEO and paid him a pretty high salary.  In the end, his performance was abysmal and he was ousted in a stockholders revolt.  The new CEO that replaced him was given a salary a fraction of what he was paid.

Can this be said of our own government?  Yes, you can vote politicians out of office but the new person will now make the higher salary that his predecessor made after he voted it in for himself without any say from us.  The government can create a new program or new department that will cost us more money and from past experience it will never die.  It will only grow larger.  On occasion our taxes have been reduced but in the long run, they have increased and they will only increase all the while the quality of the services that the government offers decreases.  It is funny how so many liberals talk about greedy corporation taking your money and making obscene profits but it is okay that politicians can take your money and use it on ridiculous pet projects.

I guess this is why I find the government or any government for that matter far more evil than any corporation because of what little control we have.

No offense to Odell, but I LOVE it when citizens of culturally homogenous and isolated socialist states like Finland or Norway come on here to lecture us about our problems and how to handle them.  Let’s redirect about 12 million illegal immigrants into their socialist paradise for the next few years and see how that system of thiers is still working....