I’m watching F/911 again on video 911. As miwsleading as some of the footage is, his over all message is undeniably correct. God help us all if Bush is elected to a second term.

As miwsleading as some of the footage is

You should have stopped there.  You cannot base your thesis on lies and expect it to hold up.

You’re brainwashed, and you are proud of it.  That’s pretty sad.

So, the overall message is importnat, yet the facts he uses toi support that diagnosis are insignificant.

LiberalandProud-

Please tell me you are really a conservative pretending to be a liberal, just to be funny and make liberals look like idiots…

Please tell me this is nothing more than another case of internet anonymity being abused

I had a hard time making it through BFC.  But I did my best and watched the bullfest.  Incidentally, I have a democrat friend that says he couldn’t stomach either Roger and Me or BFC; he had to shut them both down as the BS had piled too high even for him.  But being a libertarian, I thought awww he’s just being a pussy, until I tried it for myself - difficult isn’t the word.  But I can, however, make it through any South Park episode, and I was, in fact, sadly disappointed to see Matt Stone in BFC.

All I can say is thanks for a clear message guys.  Matt and Trey’s influence is what America really needs to hear: anti-PC, shoot-from-the-hip messages are where it’s at.  Sophistry and rhetoric are outdated, why not try brutal honesty.  Let’s hear it for the Gippers.

I recognize evil, greed and bullshit when I see it. The Bush administration is all of those things. How do you counter Condaleeza’s testimony before the 9/11 commission, JimK? You can’t. Bush was handed a memo entitled “Bin Laden determined to strike within the US”. He did nothing. Ashcroft told the FBI “He didn’t want to hear anything more about “possible terror attacks.”

If being misled is enough to make my point moot, well then Jom, the same applies to you when Bush and co. lies.

Who’s brainwashed?

If you ever watch the film again Jim, check out the DVD special features where they have Moore talking to the Corporal who saw the pipes being laid out in threes across the Iraqi desert as he was leaving. “Those pipes weren’t there before” he says.

And to get back on topic, I never thought from day 1 that the animation from BFC was done by Stone and Parker. That’s a stretch to make Moore look like a liar, and not a very good one.

Should I take this, or is another, better fleunt person on who can do it for me? It’s 3:08 here, but I have a feeling that I can pound out a post to make LAP here look like the imbecile she is.

LAP,
So you weren’t fooled by one of Moore’s many mendacious manipulations.  Congratulations!!!  If you can get past the other several hundred, you may start thinking straight.

LaP, don’t try to throw bullshit at me and expect me to change the topic of this particular post to suit your off-topic crap.

You know goddamned well we’ve covered this shit dozens of times, and MOORE is a liar.  Nothing excuses his lies, no matetr who else you say is a liar.  That is the bottom line.

Matt and Trey are smart enough to see it.  Too bad you aren’t.  Unless you have more to add about teh topic at hand, I suggest you take your other assertions to the proper topic.

Jim - we had a discussion about this in the forums recently.

I recognize evil, greed and bullshit when I see it. The Bush administration is all of those things.

You know, I think there was a time when the true simpleton’s of our country were red-neck, bible thumping, gun toting, bigots, but with talk like the quote above scripted all over the place now, I think the pendulm has swung to the other side. The new bigots and simpletons are the ones that have no arugment so they have to use words like “evil” and attack people for having politics that help our business world. The new bigots take helping out the businesses of America as greedy, and heartless. They stick out their tongues and pretend we are in a Robin Hood movie and then sneer at Republicans - all while wearing clothing and drinking from a cup made by a corporation. I’ll take religious, gun owners over this any day.

There was no stretch to make Moore out to be a liar. That is a lie on your part. Matt and Trey simply told their story. Moore tried to use them in every way he could. And they seemed quite frank about it didn’t they? Where does the stretch come in? People like you toss in shit and hope we all fight over it and debate it and in the end - it’s still just shit. What you say doesn’t have to make sense in order to feel you’ve provided an argument - just use words like “evil” and “stretch”. The Democrat nominee does this - so why can’t you?

If being misled is enough to make my point moot, well then Jom, the same applies to you when Bush and co. lies.

Who’s brainwashed?

You are. You admit Moore’s manipulation, but you still justify it no matter how bad that makes you look. You say his over all message is right on. His over all message is “Bush=evil rich man! Don’t vote for him!” That’s no message. That’s a childish whine to get your way. To me some one appears brainwashed when they are given facts and see Moore’s work debunked and still keep the same attitudes in tact. That is programing, my friend. And that is what you are displaying here.

I realized the other day that I could train a monkey to hate Bush - or hate anyone for that matter. I could train that monkey to throw fits everytime he sees a picture of a certain person. It’s a conditioning method that I’m seeing in people like you LAP. No matter how much you dislike Bush - at least have more solid reasons and admit his good parts. Admit that he has been demonized more than any president in history and has yet to deserve it.
Do some research. Or else you appear to be just like the trained monkey. Here’s your treat.

Izzy...why would he Have to manipulate people into believing Stone and Parker animated that short? To say “Woo look I got the South Park guys to do some animation on my film”? Pfft. Come now.
Please stop trying to draw connections to points that don’t exist. It doesn’t do the Anti-Moore camp any favors.
99% of the so called “distortions and lies” by Moore is just you poor obsessed souls nit-picking at minor inconsistencies anyway. Moore’s message is right on the money (pun intended) when it comes to the current administration.

Hey liberalandproud...what the hell does anything that you’re saying have to do with the topic at hand?  I really thought we were talking about Matt Stone and Trey Parker and how they felt misrepresented by Michael Moore.  People like you, who have the attention span of a pea, frustrate the hell out of me.  Why must everything be turned around to how horrible you think our president is?

Check out Fatty-Fat-Fat-fat’s most recent bloviations in my forum posting on last night’s “Slacker Uprising Tour” stop in Philadelphia.

TNS

LaP, are you really that utterly stupid?  Matt and Trey are the only two people on earth that are TRULY qualified to discern how they were abused, AND THEY SAID MOORE TRIED TO FOOL PEOPLE based on their participation.  You’re truly well and stupid if you really believe what you are typing.

I am not stupid, and Stone and Parker are mistaken. But hey, everyone who agrees with Moore is stupid, everything Moore says is a lie and if it has the slightest ring of truth to it, you can fall back on “MOORE IS SO FAT HAHAHA”

Here are the facts JimK:
1. Bush is a failed businessman.
2. Bush is not an intelligent or articulate man. It is obvious to any reasonable *sane* person that the man is incompetent and cannot run things by himself. Before he was elected, he could not name most of the world’s leaders, and *still* has trouble with multi-syllabic words.
3. Bush either knew or aught to have known Iraq was no threat to the USA, and he did indeed try to tie Hussein to the tragedy on 9/11 by inferring he aided Al Qauda at every public speaking opportunity...even though no ties or aid existed.
3. Dick Cheney is an evil hunchback gargoyle that fell of an old building and magically came to life.

Those are all points that Moore raises that are IRREFUTABLE.
They are also all the facts needed for any reasonable person to vote Kerry.

LaP, if you think those facts are irrefutable, you are not only stupid, you are the Rose Parade Queen of the Stupid.

When I see idiots like who are too stupid to have a conversation about one topic, AND are too dumb to knwo what “irrefutable” means, it almost makes me want to outlaw voting for anyone who can’t pass a basic skills test.

I’m willing to bet a special team has to remove all the sharp corners from your furniture.

BTW: for your trolling tonight, you’ve lost the privilege to post comments here.

“you poor obsessed souls nit-picking at minor inconsistencies”

This is not just nit-picking. First of all the movie was presented as a documentry meaning that those who go to see it should expect truth (even with a slant), the facts presented should be just that - facts. It could have been excused if it had been advertised for what it is - one mans point of view (twisted as that view may be).

Secondly, you say that even though misleading as it was the overall message is whats important. The end justifies the means? Moores whole argument against action in Iraq is that its all based on lies (well, according to him) so by this standard the end doesnt justify the meansthough apparently he can make up whatever shit he wants to to “get his point accross”. What hypocracy.

Michael Moore is nothing more than a shameless self-promoter who should not be allowed a seat at any serious political debate… And in the words of TP and MS he is not fat, he is big boned.

...afterthought - You admit FH9/11 was misleading but then say that bush is evil and quote a few “facts” to prove this. Why does Moore need to lie in order to show that Bush is “evil”. noone needs to embelish or invent anything about Moore for me to know hes a fuckwit.

I didnt read all of the posts in this so if it is already adressed than I am sorry. Mister Liberal and all of those who believe the bullshit about that report do not understand why Bush could not have acted. First of all several hundred threats and terror reports on possible activities arrive everyday, and the presedent has to go through ALL OF THEM, which is first very tedious, then he has to decide which ones should be taken seriously. Now, the particular report like most of them sent to the whithouse is too vague, that is exactly what it said was “osama may strike the U.S.” keyword “mey”. Second of all the report never said WHERE he was going to strike, just that he would. Now the whitehouse gets several hundred pretty much identical papers about the same thing, just different people, I am sure that kerry would have done the same thing if not less because he is one of those democratic retards that dont believe in war whatsoever. I believe if Clinton was still here or Kerry had been presidant....we would have been ....ed.

Also you saying all those “facts” in that list are nothing more than blind assumptions that could easily be assesed. First off, Bush bieng stupid is the most foolesh attempt at arguement I have ever heard. Have you ever even heard his speeches? he does alot better at adressing things than Kerry or gore did and just because he has an accent doesnt mean he’s stupid, that is pretty much the same thing as saying “oh black people are inferior because they are different.” bullshit, utter bullshit. Did you know that Bush had higher sat scores than kerry? Did you know he has won nearly every debate including those in highschool up until this point? Second lets adress Iraq. In the first war Hussein had almost reached nuclear capabilities, had taken over most of the oil in the middle east area, and because of the ass hats at the u.n. he never lost power. he wouldnt let any weapons inspectors into his 15 palaces, all SEVERAL HUNDRED or more ACHERS, that is more than enough room to produce weapons AND their components. Also there were many reports that he had been torturing people, including scientists, for information, he has destroyed his own cities, but the U.N. failed to recognize him as still a threat. Stratigically thinking although you do not know for sure had the capibilities to build weapons to destroy an entire country he gave a pretty clear assumption HIMSELF that he might, and that is enough to go to war. He broke the rules time and time again, why the U.N. didnt intervien is because they didnt want a war, or they must have been payed off because they were not inforcing their own terms of surrender and our terms, so of course like in the past we had to take care of it. Oh and your gargoyal statement about cheney...please only post legitimate statements, idiots like you only serve to displease those with knowledge.

LOL South Park makes fun of everything. Evidently they have thin skins, too. They felt their pride was bruised by being associated with something they didn’t “create.”

Actually, that animation was the highlight of the movie. It showed the wash of history and how fear has migrated from Europe to here.

But the problem isn’t just fear, it is also pride. People are proud of their work, proud of their guns, etc.

Pride comes before the fall.

Aren’t you “proud” to be keeping an eye on Michael Moore. Doesn’t that make you “special.” Everybody sees themselves as doing something heroic, including Moore of course. (and me) Bill Gates built an empire, Mick Jagger wrote a song. They think they are heroes and unique.

Whatever happened to the concept that all men are created equal?

Moore makes a mistake in logic. We are not gun nuts, as he asks/argues in Columbine. We are just plain nuts.

World Police affirms everything that Moore is talking about. These “creators” miss themselves when they are making fun of everybody else.

EVERYBODY is a hypocrite. It is part of the human condition.

These “creators” miss themselves when they are making fun of everybody else.

Funny, I thought the first half of the film was about how some pro-war people can go over the top and would be willing to turn the Middle East to glass, and they go overboard.  Then the last half was about how the critics of the war would oppose it even if the enemy was a threat to us, because they always assume that America is in the wrong (thanks Chomsky!)

They take a more moderate position: war is the answer in some cases, but you need to use tact and limit the lengths you are willing to go for “freedom”.

Liberal and Stupid,

Like i say to everyone.. learn you facts and do your research before you speak.

If you want an unbiased look at Moore’s moive, the this site lists facts of the 9/11 Commission Report compared to Moore’s counterargument that the moive presents truth

MooreCommission.8m.com

I warn you not to go to this site if you insist on a on-sided view of every story.

I recognize evil, greed and bullshit when I see it.

I thought viewing the world in terms of good and evil was simplistic, narrow-minded, and bigoted? To quote many, many sources. Or is that only when talking about Bush, Reagan (with his references to the “evil empire"), etc., on the Republican side?

Liberal and Proud, just spend five minutes reading Newsweek. If Moore had done that even once he might have made a more factual film. But that would be against everything he stands for, namely, making money at other’s expense and lying.
I did see a couple of clips of “Team America” (the ones with Kim Jong-Il). Funny.

bin laden vowed to kill americans in 1998 and the clinton admin did nothing

If bush is such a war monger than why did he not attack bin laden after the uss cole bombing in 2000 everybody knew that bin laden was behind it

Clinton was President in when the Cole was bombed in 2000.

true but i meant after he took office if bush really wanted war he could have done it than

But back to the original post - if you read the credits at the end of ‘Bowling’ you’ll see the names of the animators.

As most people would miss this, Moore had a FAQ section posted on his website to answer common myths - one of these mentioned the animation and corrected the false assumption that it was created by Matt and Trey, citing the actual creators.

I’ve had a check and it’s no longer on his site, but it DID exist until the release of F9/11.

I’d like to point out a certain level of hypocrisy in suggesting that for Michael Moore to put two separate entities side by side and have people misinterpret is wrong, yet on the flip side the people who (generally) suggest this have no problem whatsoever with the situation we’re in where a nation’s leader can suggest another nation’s leader can hold some responsibility for the acts of a totally unrelated terrorist organisation (see the whole Saddam/Osama tie-in lie).

Yes, Moore tactics are wrong. But which is more insidious? A filmmaker creating a ‘sense’ of something (without actually outright saying it) or a President who tells lies that result in the deaths of thousands? Hmmm…

I’m a born sceptic - I like Moore’s work in general (as a comedian), but I always reserve judgement until I’ve seen some sort of backup data. When it’s proven he’s lied or misled, then it’s right to publicise the fact, but don’t forget the bigger lies and who’s telling them.

Just a quick addition… sorry if I sounded like I was trying to deflect the topic towards the end of that post. Not intentional, just trying to put this in some sort of perspective (not unlike Marilyn Manson in ‘Bowling’).

M-RES

why are you lying to us???

1. bush didnt lie, he was lied to.

2. there was a saddam/osama connection.

3. you failure to reccordnize the deaths caused before we go to afganistan and iraq.

any clear thinking, honest person can see these 2 FACTS.

you can deny it, but that doesnt make it any less real.

as for the creators of the animation, how many people read the credits???  how long did it take you to go look for the people that made the animation???

moore is the master of mis-direction.  and it is people like you that allow him to get away with it.

moore DID NOT win an award for creating a comdey.

MRES

Iwouldnt get off topic by claiming Bush lied..  That ‘lie’ has already been cleared up.

When Bush is a liar, then who is Michael Moore ??.

Hey LibProud -
If you’re going to bash Bush on his English skills, could you at least say “polysyllabic” instead of “multi-syllabic”?

South Park creates humor on poeples expenses from conditions and actions these ‘people’ are in.  Most of it is flat out satirical humor.

In Moore’s case for ‘Bowling’, he emulated a style that most poeple would assume was related to Matt an Trey.

(Moore is the king of the slacker uprising, that should tell you that the majority of his target audience is not going to actively research anything.. they need to be spoon fed this informtaion, in other words, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT THEN IT MUST BE)

Their material (or lack there of) was protrayed in a way opposite of what they believe… (this is the important part) and it was used as part of a serious message in a documentary.

Again, it was not used as a humurous animation in good fun.  It had a negative meaning and message(as Matt and Trey might feel) that wasnt associated with comedy.

Anyone with this for download or streaming.  I need to see this!

Liberal and Proud.

Did you read my http://moorewatch.com/index.php/weblog/nope_that_cant_be_it_longest_post_ever/? Can you answer the question:

Why did Moore have to lie and deceive and be shifty if he had the truth on his side?

Moore and Kerry are using the old Nazi propaganda method of “Say it enough times and people will believe it”. 

In my book you say the same thing enough times and I know it to be wrong and you loose all credibility and respect.

Trey: And he’s fat.

I LMAO at this.....

“lie and if it has the slightest ring of truth to it, you can fall back on “MOORE IS SO FAT HAHAHA””

“Here are the facts JimK:”

“3. Dick Cheney is an evil hunchback gargoyle that fell of an old building and magically came to life.”

Don’t you just love liberal hypocrisy?  It’s only ok when you make fun of conservatives.

I recognize evil, greed and bullshit when I see it. The Bush administration is all of those things. How do you counter Condaleeza’s testimony before the 9/11 commission, JimK? You can’t. Bush was handed a memo entitled “Bin Laden determined to strike within the US”. He did nothing. Ashcroft told the FBI “He didn’t want to hear anything more about “possible terror attacks.”

That was nothing compared to what Senator “Gone” Kerry was handed. just watch this http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/logan.htm

If “Gone” would have done his job and protected Logan Airport, then the WTC would still be here. sKerry was handed a detailed Memo in May, Bush got a very broad memo in Aug, who had more time to act?

Kerry doin the wrong thing as usaul

Izzy...why would he Have to manipulate people into believing Stone and Parker animated that short? To say “Woo look I got the South Park guys to do some animation on my film”? Pfft. Come now.

For the same reason that he edits the way he does. Moore has an opinion. What he does by interviewing these two, then putting in a SouthParkesque animation, associates them with his opinion. To the uneducated viewer (and most viewers of anything aren’t going to investigate what someone they trust tells them), that means that here are two more famous people that agree with Moore.  That’s why he does it.

LOL South Park makes fun of everything. Evidently they have thin skins, too. They felt their pride was bruised by being associated with something they didn’t “create.”

That was as near to stealing their work as possible. It wasn’t that they were being made fun of or insulted. As stated above, the way it was done made an implied assertion that they believe something they don’t. It is the equivalent of putting words in someone’s mouth.  As for them not being able to make fun of themselves, have you ever seen an interview with them? They do it all the time.  True comedians start with the ability to laugh at themselves first.

BTW: for your trolling tonight, you’ve lost the privilege to post comments here.

Thanks Jim. I was waiting for that. LaP gets trained space monkey status. They obviously know nothing but programming.

can any moore fans post some evidence with the bullshit theyr puttin up on here, at least a link...gimme sumthin, but anyways, “Team America” is hilarious and i believe their work to be non-biased, and by non-bias i mean they make fun of everyone equally.  There were definitely parts of the movie that criticized things i believe in...and it was fuckin funny

Look, I know this is off topic, but I’ve gotta say it.

The history of america scene in BFC? Bullshit. The whole fucking thing is bullshit.
Listen, i know you liberals love to blame yourselves and your white ancestors for everything, but listen up. This is a full blown NATIVE AMERICAN(read: injun) telling you to LEARN HISTORY. Do you want to know why the Mayflower Compact(fifty years of peace between the indians and the pilgrams) failed? because MY ancestors, not yours, launched the first attack. Yes, that’s right. My tribe in perticular, the Erie tribe, launched a few offences against the white guys. And back then, boys and girls, Settlers didn’t know about “tribes” and “different cultures of indians,” so they did the logical thing and retaliated. Things escalated from there, of course, but the main point is this: BOTH SIDES MADE MISTAKES. We’re both responsibe for what happened,not just one side.

Sorry for the tangent, this whole thing just gets me really pissed off.

Oh, and go ahead liberals. Go ahead and try to attack me.

What are you? Afraid?

A Native American Ninja?  o_O

/me ducks to avoid the ban.

Man, I’m a bit suprised by Matt and Trey’s comments.  I wonder if they know that they’re being outed as closet right wing gun nuts by people like the one’s on this “discussion” board.

Since you guys pride yourselves with your top-notch “debunking” skills (e.g. “debunking” claims that Michael Moore never implicitly made, such as the claim that George W. Bush approved the Saudi flights and that they left before the ban on commercial flights were lifted.  Moore never imlicitly said either of those things in F911.  Also, the Pantagraph article, the centerpiece of your attacks on Moore’s film?  Moore never said “Numerous major news publications ran front page articles on the fact that Gore won the election...” rather, Moore did say “Numerous independant investigations were conducted showing Gore won...” or something to that effect.  I’m paraphrasing.  I belive these types of arguments are classified as straw men?  As in, they don’t hold up?  I don’t know. I notice you guys are big fans of the use of ad hominem.  Yeah, shit like that doesn’t hold up in a debate either.

Now, before big ol’ Jimk accuses me of going off topic, let’s look at some things Matt and Trey actually said in their interview with Conan:

What he did that made us a little angry is he put an animation in right after my piece in Bowling in Columbine that is very South Park-esque in its look. And I think 99% of the people who saw Bowling for Columbine think Trey and I did that animation.

The animation in question does not appear right after Matt’s segment in BFC.  It does appear right after a segment where Moore and the father of one of the Columbine victims are discussing the supposed differences between Americas culture of violence and violent culture in other countires.  That segment, which appears a good 15 minutes or so after Matt’s segment, is a much more appropriate set up for the “Brief History of America” animation sequence than Matt’s descriptions of growing up in Littleton and how student’s are put under a lot of pressure to do well in school. 

Also, 99% of the people who saw BFC thought that the animated segment was done by Matt and Trey?  I sure as hell didn’t think that.  But I suppose some people made that mistake.  So to address that issue, besides properly crediting the animator of the cartoon segment during the closing crdits, on the BFC DVD, in the “scenes” (aka chapter selection) section, the “Brief History of America” chapter has the following annotation superimposed on the still shot of the cartoon:

“Written by Michael Moore.  Animated by Harold Moss/Flickerlabs.”

Golly!  This debunking thing sure is easy and fun for kids!

Matt and Trey can be dicks if they want.  They’ve made their millions by offending just about everybody.  I still enjoyed Team America and I’ll continue to enjoy their films and tv shows.  I’m not going to cry “boycott” just because Matt and Trey decided to critisize Moore and then lie to justify themselves.  Were Matt and Trey “personal victims” of Tim Robbins or Samuel L. Jackson’s lies and manipulations, too?  Is that why those actors were also gunned down and/or blown up in Team America?  Gosh, Matt and Trey, I feel for ya.  I really do.

Moore is a lot like Rush. He doesn’t lie, but he presents the facts in a misleading manner.

Rush things he is telling the perfect truth, and many people believe everything and anything he says.
Moore believes he is telling the perfect truth, and many people believe everything and anything he says.

Personally, I agree with Einstein. He said, “There are two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I’m not so sure about the universe.”

This site is just a big gossip column of who did what and why. And is, unfortunately, a good reflection of our political sophistication. Planes fly into building, and conervatives want to blame Michael Moore and the liberals. Planes fly into buildings, and liberals want to blame George Bush and greedy corporations.

What logic is this? Does anybody wonder why they flew planes into buildings? Both sides are too busy talking about goats and other fairy tales. Why are people so angry that they want to kill us?

worm:
such as the claim that George W. Bush approved the Saudi flights and that they left before the ban on commercial flights were lifted.  Moore never imlicitly said either of those things in F911.

How about Dude: Where’s My Country?  THEN will you believe that Moore was saying that?

While thousands were stranded and could not fly, if you could prove you were a close relative of the biggest mass murderer in US history, you got a free trip to gay Paree!

worm:
Moore never said “Numerous major news publications ran front page articles on the fact that Gore won the election...” rather, Moore did say “Numerous independant investigations were conducted showing Gore won...” or something to that effect.

So if you display an image of a newspaper with a headline… what exactly ARE you saying?

Also, 99% of the people who saw BFC thought that the animated segment was done by Matt and Trey?  I sure as hell didn’t think that.  But I suppose some people made that mistake.

So you’re saying the similarities in animation style are purely coincidental?

steve:
Planes fly into building, and conervatives want to blame Michael Moore and the liberals.

I’m sorry, I missed that one… who here blamed 9/11 on Michael Moore?