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From:Jpbs ([email protected])
Subject: Hi Ya’all

You guys make us laugh with astonsihment!  Do you ever wonder why the rest of the world thinks the US is hugely ignorant?  Is the US Wealthy?  for sure.  Is it Fucken stupid? definitely!!  The US really is the joke of the globe when we listen to your pure ignorant leaders as they try & justify their views.  Just shows, power doesn’t stop idiocy.  You spew crap constantly about whats right for the world, yet 70% of your senators don’t own passports!  what do they base their world knowledge on? I am a wealthy small busines owner - capitalist - from down under.  So don’t write me off as some lefty, commie “red under the bed” hippie (though you probably will). Listen fuckheads, you don’t need to blow the crap out of innocent people, based on a lie, to prove you are right wing.  Sure Husain needed to go, but don’t bullshit as to why you killed innocent people.  Why aren’t the US nobely rescuing the crisis in the Sudan?  the poverty in Chad? the third world debt levels?  no oil, !
weapons multinational contracts or building contracts on offer in these places? Don’t bother answering the last questions, I know you’ll have no idea where these places are on the globe, you ignorant fucks

From: Terry Nazar ([email protected])
Subject: Here’s A Thought

...from an asute man in another part of the world. You might have to get your Rand McNally out to find out where he lives.

Third World Election

A Zimbabwe politician was quoted as saying children should study the U.S. election event closely because it shows that election fraud is not only a third world phenomenon. He illustrated his point by saying:

“Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was, himself, the former head of that nation’s secret police (the CIA).

“Imagine the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover from the nation’s pre-democracy past [the Electoral College ].

“Imagine that the self-declared winner’s ‘victory’ turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother.

“Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner’s opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.

“None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner’s will to power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some strange, faraway elsewhere.”

IF YOU CAN’T UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT THIS PARALLEL, YOU ARE IN DENIAL JUST LIKE YOUR POOR LEADER.........LOSER!

Terry Nazar
St. Catharines, Canada

From: Ron Richards ([email protected])
Subject: Moore

Poor Bush, Mr. Moore got it right. Bush is DOME. Lets see,Bush said things like, I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family. or “When i was coming up,it was a dangerous world, and you knew exactly who they were,” he said . “it was us vs. them, and it was clear who them was. Today,we are not so sure who the they are, but we know they’re there.” look at www.Bushisms.com or www.BUSHSUCKS.com for moore.
I like John McCain i thinkis a good man, but i think he wrong on Bush. I think Bush is wrong for us, remember Bush said, “ fool me once shame on, a fool me a, a,fool a, you cant fool a, me a “ well you see what i mean.  Down with Bush,

BU**
SH**

From:  neofx ([email protected])
Subject:Easy Money

Debunk just one Moore lie and make $10,000 dollars. Just one.

Easy money. Or is it?

The reality is that sites like yours only prey on ignorant, uneducated ilk.....You know the neo-cons. No substance. You don’t need to win an argument just muddy the facts. Hitler also heard God speak to him. God was on their side so they claimed.

it’s tough to see reality for what it is because when you take the fantasy away reality is very real. By the way where is Osama?

Arguing with people like you is like participating in a Special Olympics race. So I’ll go and collect my medal even before getting into it. Bye.

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( I’ll leave the comments of the Congressman who describes how Moore actually edited his scene in the movie where he describes his family members who are serving at the time for a later discussion) After that scene, Moore makes the following comment.

NARRATOR: Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq. And who could blame them? Who would want to give up their child? Would you? Would he [President Bush]? I’ve always been amazed that the very people forced to live in the worst parts of town, go to the worst schools, and who have it the hardest are always the first to step up, to defend us. They serve so that we don’t have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is remarkably their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm’s way unless it’s absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?

Moore starts here to make the case that the military seeks out the minority population to serve and die at the white population’s leisure. To help develop this impression, he introduces the audience to two Marine Corps recruiters, and describes part of their recruiting strategy to bolster his “opinion”:

Moore:

They decided not to go to the wealthier Genesee Valley Mall in the suburbs. They have a hard time recruiting people there. Instead, they went to the other mall.(The Courtland center)

-cut to a scene of the Marines driving and pointing out possible people they would want to interview as the head to the Courtalnd Center Mall.

I decided to look up these two malls:

COURTLAND CENTER
G-4190 E. Court, Burton, 48509

With over 97 fine stores and restaurants, Courtland Center is anchored by JCPenney and Mervyn’s. Courtland Center also features a food court, as well as Old Country Buffet. Courtland Center is conveniently located at I-69, Center Road and Court Street. Gift certificates and Michigan Lottery are available. Courtland Center’s operating hours are: Monday - Saturday 10:00am to 9:00pm and Sunday 12:00pm to 6:00pm.

GENESEE VALLEY CENTER
3341 Linden Rd. (Linden/Miller intersection), Flint, 48507
(810) 732-4000
Super regional shopping center with 140 stores including J.C. Penney, Sears, Marshall Fields and Mervyn’s.

vitis Flint . com

Actually, The Courtland center is in the suburbs of Flint, in Burton , Michigan, while Genesee Mall is closer to downtown. (I don’t want to be accused of being nit-picky, that’s just what the mapquest diagram showed me.)

Now, believe it or not, this is the extent of what Moore spoke of on this issue personally in the movie. He did expand on the theme in a later segment later in the movie, showing the pair of US Marine Corps recruiters at the Courtland Center Mall. The two Marines approach several young men and hand out cards, most of the young men were black or minority citizens. ( at least the ones we see on film) But the impression has been made, the conspiracy starts to take on a personality of its own, helped along, of course by scenes like this:

Student, after talking to a recruiter-

I ran into a recruiter and, uh, there was something I noticed about it and this is kind of on another, it’s just, I noticed it was odd. It was more like he was hiring me for a job than recruiting me for the army. It was the way he approached me… approached a friend of mine. ... It was at Borders Books & Music. (video of car ride) He just came up, it was, it was his business card. He had business cards made for the army and everything.

( actually, the Army had business cards made up for him, but I digress)

Here is the part of the story where Moore’s techniques really show their effectiveness. Moore fans have extrapolated this sentiment hinted in the film to the point where they are convinced that the US military actually seeks out kids from poor neighborhoods, because they are either out of options, easily persuaded, or worse, expendable citizens. The seed has been planted, the “uproar” begins:

Take for example this quote from a Moore fan on our own forums.

And these are your heroes, the people you love so much on this site: cowardly draft dodgers who send the poor off to fight for them while they mastermind corporate crime. See, you cowards on this site want to pick apart the “facts” in Moore’s film, but the film has a basic truth, an archetypal one, a timeless one: The rich send the poor off to do their fighting.
link

Or these from other internet sites:

I just got back from seeing Farenheit 9/11. There’s a little voice saying I should pick away, argue about this point or that point, qualify, criticize. Others can do that. Moore makes one point quite brilliantly: that those who suffer and die come overwhelmingly from families and communities that are, shall we say, somewhat poorer than the politicians who chose to go to war, or the executives of the corporations who hope (hoped?) to profit from Iraqi reconstruction.

link

Another thing in Fahrenheit 911 that made me boilingmad was the expose of how the military recruits poor young people into the armed services. Two professional recruiters approached teens at a run-down mall on a weekend to try to get them to sign up.

link

Some of the most disturbing scenes in the movie display that contradiction. It doesn’t come as a surprise to anyone that poor kids, especially minority kids, fill the military, and that the price they pay is huge. Knowing that doesn’t prepare you for watching two Marine recruiters who make used car salesmen look like pikers, preying on mostly minority kids,
link

What hit me hardest in the film was the section about who fights these wars. We all know that Viet Nam was fought by far more Black soldiers than White, going by population percentages. And in all the wars from WWII to the present, Native Americans volunteer at far higher rates than white kids do. And then there is the largest common denominator of all: the poor.

Michael Moore appears very sparsely in the film. For all the claims of some that the film is “propaganda” and “skewed” I found it quite the opposite. It was very factual, very up front, very real. These aren’t actors, this is a real documentary. link

(I provided those links to show I’m not alone in this interpretation of the movie.) Moore’s fans often describe them selves as “open-minded” unlike thier conservative counterparts. One could argue that “open-minded” is just another way of saying “hole-in-head”.

Moore laid out the scenes and dialog in such a way, that Somewhere between Moore and his fans, a thesis has been formed:

“The military actively recruits poor , especially minorities, to do the fighting on behalf of white Americans.”

If this was so, I figured I would certainly be able to dig up the statistics to prove it. And so I got out my shovel and went to work:

This is what I discovered:

US Civilian Population , ages 18-24 by race 2002 ( latest numbers available, Bush Administration era)

White 65.12%
Black, Hispanic, Others - 34.87%

US military personnel acquisitions , ages 18-24 2002 ( latest numbers available, Bush Administration era)

White 66.96 %
Black Hispanic, Others - 33.04%
link

Looking at those numbers, White Americans actually join at a slightly higher percentage than their overall population percentage, while minorities join the military less than their overall population percentage.
Still, the numbers are very, very close to being as representative as anyone could possibly hope for. But how could that be? Well, It was no accident. In 2002 Donald Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense issued a directive concerning recruiting the proper quantity and quality of military personnel. They list five key goals they wish to achieve. Number 3 gives us the answer as to why the recruitment number percentages by race are almost exactly the same as the population percentages by race.

It reads:

(The DOD intends to) aggressively pursue a workforce with diverse race, ethnic, and socioeconomic background.
link
Military Human Resources Strategic Plan, 2002

So, that would explain how the recruitment numbers are equitable in terms of race, but how about education levels?
From the same report, the Military explains how it is adapting to an ever increasing number of educated people in the US.

“ Today’s youth are also more education oriented. The college enrollment for today’s youth is at an all time high of 63%” “These statistics demonstrate the need for military recruiters to penetrate the college market”.

As of 2002, 94.4% of all active duty personnel had at least a High School Diploma, while 10.8 had at lest a bachelor’s degree as well.  Thanks to the Army University Access Online, 54% of Military personnel had at least 1 year of college. Compared to the civilian population, the military is has more diploma recipients in it’s ranks than the average Wal Mart workforce.

In FY 2000, 57 percent of 18- to 24-year-old Hispanics completed high school or earned an alternative credential compared to 74 percent of Blacks and 84 percent of Whites (civilians).

So, our troops are racially diverse, and educated. But are they poor?

Well, Yes and no. It would appear from the research done by the military of the socio-economic status of the parents of its recruits, you get two different and very suprising sets of numbers.

One for white recruits:

Now, in terms of median income, for whites—now again, this is enlisted versus—and this is against the entire civilian population, so it’s not quite the right comparison. But for whites, the median total gross household income in 1999 for our enlisted population was about $33,500, versus $44,400 for the civilian population. Again, that omits officers from the DOD numbers—

Q: This is the household income that these recruits are coming out of?

Senior Defense Officer: Right. This is white enlisted.

Q: Thirty-three five. And what was the second number?

Senior Defense Officer: Forty-four four, for civilians as a whole.

and then another set for Black recruits:

For African Americans, however, the total gross household income of our active duty personnel, their parents, that is, was $32,000 versus $27,900 for the population at large. So specifically to Mr. Rangel’s charge, it’s not quite the picture that he would argue exists. These are actually—for our African-American recruits, recruits come out better, above average, in fact, near the national average, in terms of household income.

I Know, I know.......link please.Here you go.

Allow me to recap that for you.

White recruits come from families with a lower average income than the total white family population.
Black recruits come from families with a higher average income than the total white family population.

But what about the richest American families? Those making , say , over 150K per year? 

most of these comparisons people talk about are about the enlisted force, which, almost by definition, is not going to come out of the ranks of people whose parents make each $150,000 a year. Those people are where we would tend to recruit our officers from.

And what we’re going to try to do is put together a similar picture—some of which we may have for you this week, some of which we may have over the coming weeks—of what’s a officer class look like versus the population at large. You would not expect a large number of people with parents with that income level because that—if you look at American income distribution statistics across the board, there aren’t a lot of Americans who make that much money.

By the way, these are quotes from a Dept of Defense breifing to the press, where one reporter asked this question;

Q: Where do you think that perception comes from, then? I mean, we did a piece last week where we were just talking to people on the street, and virtually everyone they talked to seemed to have this impression that, you know, it’s poor people who are going out and doing all the fighting, while the rich people are sitting back counting their money.

I mean, where is that misperception coming from? Is it—

Senior Defense Officer: I think it’s rooted—it’s interesting how long old ideas persist. And I think this is a very old idea that the country at large—you know, if the country’s view of the military is importantly determined by such TV epics, which I happen to love myself, as M*A*S*H, you have the wrong view of the American military today. That’s not the American military of the late 20th and early 21st century. It’s, to borrow the advertising slogan, it’s not your father’s military, quite literally, in this case. It has changed.

Perhaps it’s also from contrived scenes in a movie called Fahernhiet 9-11 by Michael Moore.

You’ll notice I didn’t particularly go after Moore in this article. I mostly wanted to highlight how even though he doesn’t feel he is lying in his film, because he states no actual statistics, he is giving false information. And the easily persuaded of the world gobble it up, and spit it all over the internet as “the Truth”.

By speaking in generalities, while at the same time shooting film very specifically, Moore created an often repeated but faulty “thesis”. The numbers just don’t back it up. Moore is dead wrong.

You Moore fans out there can no longer claim “ignorance” on this subject and continue to repeat this lie. Or the 7 Minutes thing, or the Air Laden flight thing, or the Bush’s cousin thing.........

Where do we want to go next?

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