Jim Kenefick and Moorewatch as presented by Michael Moore in Sicko
Well, at least now we'll all know exactly how Mikey presents this dumb story, eh? The video below requires Flash.
Let's break it down, shall we?
First of all, love the fake sotto voce delivery. My God that's pretentious. I also love the lead-in to the segment about me and this site; Moore and I are mortal enemies, just like Castro and America, but look! Enemies can be so wonderful to each other! Isn't Michael Moore a really great human being?
He opens the segment calling us "the biggest anti-Michael Moore website on the internet." Can I quote you, Mike? Would you mind if I put that on a tee shirt? He goes on to imply that the site was absolutely shutting down, when the fact is I said it was a very likely possibility, but that we could try to save it by getting some cash together quickly. It's a small detail, but like everything with Michael, the devil is always in how he presents these little things.
SIDEBAR - This was the infamous (to long-time readers) "lightning strike" incident which we found out later only kind-of happened. Remember, at the time I still trusted our server provider (JT Thompson of E-places.net) and considered him a friend. Little did I know that he was using the fact that lightning did indeed strike the data center as a way to bilk me (and you) out of a couple thousand more dollars. As it happened, the lightning strike did no damage whatsoever. It happened, but it was not the cause of the server crashing. That was ALL manufactured by the con man (JT Thompson of E-places.net) who was providing our service at the time.
He goes on to say the site was in trouble "because his wife was ill, and they could no longer afford to pay for her health insurance." Now, that's a half-truth at best. The insurance was in place for over a year. Come hell or high water I was going to cover that. If it meant losing the site and anything else we could trim, so be it. But it wasn't just the health insurance. It was JT's server scam, our mortgage increase, and an increase in premiums for both health and auto insurance all at the same time that led us to a minor crisis. Of all those things, the most immediate and the easiest to lose was the dedicated server.
Let me make one thing perfectly clear: Long before Moore even considered sending a check, you, the readers of Moorewatch, as well as the readers of Right Thoughts and Right Thinking, banded together and you saved these sites. You did it, not Michael. His money never arrived until long after the sites were safely up and running again. I even said to the person who emailed me, this Google Ghost named "Nora LaVelle," that the sites were all taken care of for the moment, and she asked if I had any other ongoing expenses. That's when I told "her" about the insurance premiums and "she" said that my "angel" wanted to help.
Moving on, Moore says that "He was faced with a choice of either keep attacking me, or pay for his wife's health. Fortunately, he chose his wife" Of course I did. What a lovely implication that is, eh? It subtly implies that there may have been a decision at all to be made. It implies that I might be the kind of person who would choose to rant about Michael Moore and let my wife suffer.
That Moore, he sure is a nice guy, huh? Altruistic to the core.
This moment in the film is accompanied by one of Michael's misleading tricks; he highlights the phrase "The sites are likely going down." What he doesn't tell you is that was from a whole other point in history. That blog post was NOT from the same time period as the first one he showed. It was from the period of time when we found out that JT Thompson was a con man and that he was not paying his bills, and that all of his customers were about to be terminated due to non-payment. If you stop the clip and read the surrounding text, you can see the context...something that theater-goers will never be able to do.
It's another half-truth editing trick by Moore. Call it the "two ties" moment from Bowling For Columbine, where Moore edited together two completely different speeches to make Charleton Heston look like an uncaring monster.
He goes on to discuss how I should be able to "Have health insurance and exercise his First Amendment right to run me into the ground." This is just a cornucopia of various posts from all different times. He goes back to December 2004, jumps to 2006, then back to 2004...it's all edited with the Ken Burns motion technique and much of the text obscured by a dark filter with certain key phrases highlighted. Then he highlights a post I made on 4/16/2004. It was in response to one of "Mike's Messages." In that message, he was running down a few civilian contractors that had just been brutally murderered in Iraq. I was disgusted by his reaction then and I an just as disgusted by it now.
That's the context of me saying "Dear Michael, Fuck you." Again, something that theater-goers will never, ever be able to discern from the brief, carefully presented clips in the film. All it does is serve to make me look, as he did to the Bunny Lady and many others, like an unhinged loon.
He then shows the actual check/money order thing he sent - complete with our names on display. Fair enough. I'm not exactly hiding under a rock here. he then says that he sent it anonymously. Anonymous except for that part where it's in the movie. Oops!
The clip continues to show my thanking the "anonymous" guardian angel, and he closes by saying "His wife got better and his website is still going strong." Another misleading statement. My wife is getting better. There is a difference, but it's a difference that Moore could not care less about. He never asked, personally or through a representative, about my wife's current health. He just made it up.
The line "and his website is still going strong" comes over a tight shot of a line from that post about his reaction to the deaths of the civilian contractors in Iraq. Leaving the viewers with that last impression that I'm the most ungrateful bastard who ever lived.
Of course the facts are that those words were written TWO YEARS before Michael sent that check.
So what can we learn from all of this? Well, nothing new, unfortunately. We learn that Michael Moore is still using editing tricks, time compression and juxtaposition to create the emotional reactions that he wants you to have. Reactions that you might not have if you were presented with all the facts accurately and in chronological order. Some important things to remember as we go forward:
1. Michael Moore did not save this site. You did. The readers, commenters and supporters of this and our other sites saved our bacon, as you have many times over the years. You are without a doubt the best bunch a blogger could ask for as readers, and if I don't say it enough, please know that I an eternally grateful for each and every one of you.
2. This money helped us a great deal. It took us from sitting behind the eight ball to balancing on top of the eight ball. For that my wife and I will always be grateful. No matter what other people say, no matter what happens in the future, Donna and I can say without reservation that Michael Moore helped us. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss why he decided to do it in this manner, and I would hope that anyone reading this could understand that.
3. Sometimes, Mike just makes things up because it makes his narrative flow better. Michael's defense for going to Cuba proper is that his trip was journalistic in nature. You know what? I agree. I actually agree that, regardless of his intent to glamorize Cuban health care, he was allegedly making a documentary about health care. Therefore it seems reasonable and this non-lawyer, within the law to visit Cuba for the purposes of journalism. Such exceptions are granted to journalists all the time.
However, this also means that now Michael has stated for the public record that Sicko is a work of journalism. Therefore, Sicko must be held to higher standards than Moore's previous works, which he himself categorized as entertainment. Making up little white lies and telling half-truths is not what a documentary film-maker or a journalist should be doing. Using deceptive editing tricks, emotionally charged rhetoric and using juxstaposition to craft a reaction is not what a documentary film-maker or a journalist should be doing.
Ultimately what we should all take away from this is two simple words:
Comments
Posted by Libertarian Librarian on 06/13 at 02:28 PM
But hey defend multibillion dollar corporations that would deny you your life to pad their stockholders pockets.
*sigh* Show me where anybody has defended that.
Can you make one post around here without beating up an innocent straw man?
My apologies if I’m beating that dead horse, but Librarian, I’m dismayed that you’re continuing to use the label “libertarian.” I’m not seeing much in your posts that actually justify using that description. Unless libertarianism is somehow different in Germany...?
No, he’s right, I like it when big companies kill people. I hope they kill me soon. After all, that IS the only conceivable alternative to free universal socialized medicine, right?
Something makes me think he’s not a librarian either. Seems mighty loud.
Max, what the fuck would you consider “proof?” I don’t have a physical letter or an email with headers to show you. If you don’t trust me, fine, but fuck you for calling me a liar and you have NOTHING with which to back it up.
I see you’ve adopted the “change the subject” posture again. If you can’t talk about Moore at all, just say so and we can finish this here and now.
Posted by Libertarian Librarian on 06/13 at 12:28 PM (Link to this comment)
“Universal care started in 1948 in Britian after the country was in tatters and decided that every man woman and child has a god given right to life and medicine.”
Actually it started way before that in the USSR. Was later followed by a socialist PM in the UK.
Anyway, we can do something like Canada and offer a universal floor level of care… as long as it is private I don’t mind. Buy everyone who does not have other insurance a major medical blue cross plan… fine…
On the other hand, socialists tend be more about forced equality than actually caring about people’s needs. I don’t want a government only run healthcare system that puts forced equality over other concerns… like allowing excellence… and allowing those people who are great at what they do to charge more.. If I’m sick, I may want to take them up on it.
sethery
Something makes me think he’s not a librarian either.Seems mighty loud.
Well I’m not in the library, so no worries.I know how much you must dislike opposing viewpoints. A governments first cardinal role is their duty to the citizens. If the citizenry is denied access to healthcare and medicine then they first won’t have much of a prospering community. Why not have for profit police forces or fire departments? People literally pointed towards the door with a life threatening illness for lack of money is an embarassment to the richest nation on earth in all of history. If you are against guaranteed healthcare to every single man, woman and child then you are in favor of for profit healthcare. No two ways about it.
Posted by bismarck on 06/13 at 12:55 PM (Link to this comment)
“I’m not seeing much in your posts that actually justify using that description. Unless libertarianism is somehow different in Germany...?”
Nope. Actually libertarian, as a political term, always means classical liberal everywhere… Because its not what the term means (it really means something about a religious notion of free will). Its only recruited as a political term in places the left swiped ‘Liberal’…
Germany does seem to one of those places that the left wrote the political spectrum. There is no center or classical liberals. If your not left, your right wing… probably a ‘right wing extremist’ to boot. LOL Everywhere else on the continent, if you say your liberal they get you mean libertarian…
But yeah, no libertarian or real liberal would be saying this stuff.
If the citizenry is denied access to healthcare and medicine
No one in America is denied access to these things. The debate is about who will pay the bill.
Please at least tell that much of the truth.
So....did you give the check back? Since it was sooooooo late? Did you give it back?
Posted by Max Singer on 06/13 at 03:13 PM
dick, asshole...thanks for the compliments Jim!
You come here with the YOU’RE-A-LIAR guns a-blazing...what do you expect? Flowers?
We all know Lion’s Gate and Tom Ortenberg threatened to sue, but didn’t follow through with it. I read it on blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
“Blah blah blah blah blah.”
Blah blah? Blah blah? Blah blah? Blah blah blah? JimK’s blah blah blah?
Blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah? Blah blah blah blah? Blah blah blah!
“stay on topic here...”
The topic here is truth. You brought it up in relation to ‘Sicko’.
If you’ve got facts to back up your claim that “Moore threatened to sue me”, bring it.
You ask a crapload of questions, but dodge anything you can’t answer yourself. JimK doesn’t owe you squat. Why don’t you keep this in a thread where JimK actually mentioned the lawsuit? JimK’s blog entry sets the topic around here, not you.
But yeah, no libertarian or real liberal would be saying this stuff.
Of course not. It violates every possible definition of “libertarian.” After all, when the government pays the bill, the government gets to dictate how you interact with whatever that bill is for. In this case we will ABSOLUTELY end up with laws that tell us what to eat, what we’re not allowed to choose, etc. That is the exact opposite of libertarianism.
Someone picked the name hoping to fend off charges of “socialist” and “radical liberal.”
Librarian -
People literally pointed towards the door with a life threatening illness for lack of money
Has it been a while since you’ve been in America? I think tales like this are largely apocryphal. Two weeks ago, I went into a public hospital’s emergency room because chest pains. They asked my name and a phone number, and in five minutes I was hooked up to an EKG. Twenty minutes later I was given another backup test. I wasn’t even asked about insurance or ability to pay until about an hour after I arrived.
latisha, do you have anything intelligent or on point to say?
No one in America is denied access to these things.
bzzzt
Numerous people are turned away for vital medical needs such as chemo, major surgeries, rehabilitation every day for lack of coverage. Many of those people go rock bottom bankrupt in the process of this and run out of money and left to live in squalor. You’re saying a man or woman living in poverty needing open heart surgery or cancer treatment et al. gets denied? What about the man in Sicko who had to choose which of the two fingers that got cut off he wanted to keep since he couldn’t afford both of them?
I barely take it. Do any of you Moore supporters read the history of this issue or at least the topic of the post?
The one-off posts don’t impress anyone, much less persuade anyone. It really hurts your side’s credibility.
Jim, you and the rest of the members must have the patience of saints. I don’t remember this big of a moronic turnout during F911.
oops, I can barely take it ...
In this case we will ABSOLUTELY end up with laws that tell us what to eat, what we’re not allowed to choose, etc.
I never been told what to eat or do once. I been advised to quit smoking but any doctor in the world would tell you that.
You couldn’t find one person in Europe or Canada that would gladly trade their healthcare for ours. My opinions on peoples right to healthcare and prosperous lives has no bearing on my Libertarianism. Hell, Penn and Teller the two biggest Libertarians in the world (They’re on the Cato Institute’s board) view it as a necessity.
Posted by Libertarian Librarian on 06/13 at 03:34 PM
I know how much you must dislike opposing viewpoints.
You know less about me than you imagine.
A governments first cardinal role is their duty to the citizens.
Yes, and if they institute policies that lower the quality of healthcare, they are failing in that duty. That’s part what this debate is about.
If the citizenry is denied access to healthcare and medicine then they first won’t have much of a prospering community.
As JimK pointed out, nobody is denied access for insurance reasons. Somebody is going to bring up the lady who died in an ER in Los Angeles last month. They’ll probably try to pass it off as an insurance issue, even though it isn’t. They won’t mention that the case is being seriously investigated, because that diminishes the implication that this was okay by everybody but her husband.
Why not have for profit police forces or fire departments?
Why not give out free food and water to everybody? Without those starting today, you’ll die a lot quicker than without healthcare, unless you step in front of a bus on the way to the library. Then you’ll have made a point.
People literally pointed towards the door with a life threatening illness for lack of money is an embarassment to the richest nation on earth in all of history.
Again… Show us where this “literally” happens and we’ll show you where there was “literally” an investigation into it.
If you are against guaranteed healthcare to every single man, woman and child then you are in favor of for profit healthcare. No two ways about it.
I don’t know if this was a point, but at least you see that it was a very black-and-white claim. Let us know when you’re ready to discuss the grey-zone where the real world exists.
Posted by Libertarian Librarian on 06/13 at 01:34 PM (Link to this comment)
“Why not have for profit police forces or fire departments?”
There is little to be gained by competition in that market.
Also, having these things public does not stifle innovation in that sector. If you come up with better firefighting or police methods and products, you can still market them to the public run departments.
Last of all, as a sector of the economy, it is small enough that we can take any inefficiencies caused by the public financing of it. Not so sure about healthcare. Or that we want to stifle innovation since public healthcare systems are less likely to use expensive new procedures or meds (which helps pay the initial R&D;)… We’ve got instances where the British NHS won’t buy new British invented anti cancer meds (instead they want to stay with older cheaper methods). They have to sell them here to recoup their costs…
But the fact that you don’t know this stuff makes you not a libertarian. That whole libertarian socialist thing is an oxymoron.
Posted by Libertarian Librarian on 06/13 at 03:53 PM
You couldn’t find one person in Europe or Canada that would gladly trade their healthcare for ours.
You seem to like to make broad unsubstantiated claims without backup. People denied life-saving healthcare… Couldn’t find one person…
What about the man in Sicko who had to choose which of the two fingers that got cut off he wanted to keep since he couldn’t afford both of them?
You actually believe that story as it was presented?
How can you? It;s preposterous on it’s face, and on top of that we have no earthly way of proving it true OR false. Fucking hell, Moore could have claimed that the insurance company required that the man shove the stumps up his ass before getting surgery and BY LAW, we cannot investigate the claim without that man’s signed, written permission.
I don’t believe we have the whole story, and if we do have the whole story, then it is an aberration and NOT standard operating procedure. If that were the way everyone were treated all the time, it would be in the news every. fucking. day.
You couldn’t find one person in Europe or Canada that would gladly trade their healthcare for ours.
Someone obviously decided to take their talking points directly from Moore’s mouth. Too bad that one resulted in him putting his foot in there when he tried to do it on his little stage show, since none of the Americans wanted to trade in the first place.
I’d suggest that if you love what you’re getting where you are so much, you give up your American citizenship and take German citizenship. I mean, you’re getting such wonderful care there, and they’re prioritizing the citizenry so much more, right? Why not put your citizenship where your mouth is, instead of griping about “our” medical care?
Why not have for profit police forces or fire departments?
No one is stopping you from hiring a body guard, and security to watch your house. Hell no one would probably stop you from hiring a guy with a truck and a fire extinguisher to make sure your house doesn’t burn down either.
But catching the guy robbing my house is neccessary to society, as is preventing a fire in my home from spreading to the neighbors houses. Those are public concerns. But how I pay for getting a broken arm fixed isn’t the public’s concern.
Why not put your citizenship where your mouth is
Is that the modern version of ‘love it or leave it’? First off I love America and I also have a German visa so I basically have unofficial dual citizenship.Second why in the world would anyone give up a citizenship short of spite, or someone on some anonymous messageboard telling you to? What country did you move to during the Clinton years?
Is that the modern version of ‘love it or leave it’?
No, that’s the situation appropriate version of “put your money where your mouth is”, moron. You say you love America, but you’re oddly lacking on any actual praise for it, while your praise for Germany is long, profuse, and the only argument you’ve made.
Gee, I’m sorry, am I bothering you by pointing out your various hypocrisies? Too fucking bad. You’re claiming you’ve found a country’s system to be marvelous, and yet you continue to leech the benefits of your American citizenship.
You’re the one living in another country, badmouthing the services of my country while praising how the country you’re living in approaches things. And yet, the moment it’s suggested you follow through on your apparent love affair, all of a sudden you’re a HUGE patriot and how dare I suggest such a thing?
Let’s put it this way. You may be an American citizen, but you’re not an American. And if you never come back, the country will be just that much better off. Is that clear enough for you?
You may be an American citizen
Technically true. What he wants to be, however, is an American subject.
We fought a revolution to avoid shit like this, now everyone wants to roll over and beg the government to take over our lives. And these people have the god-damned nerve to call themselves libertarians?
Posted by JimK on 06/13 at 03:16 PM (Link to this comment)
“We fought a revolution to avoid shit like this, now everyone wants to roll over and beg the government to take over our lives. And these people have the god-damned nerve to call themselves libertarians?”
You haven’t really developed that point much in relation to Moore’s ‘gift’ IMO. That you thought better of taking private help from an alleged friend than turning to the government (which you probably could have).... Maybe you should add it to your points.
Lefties universally want us to see government as an expression of community and we (I’m assuming we’re on the same page) just don’t see it that way. The government is the government… a danger when powerful. The more of our lives it controls in the name of our protection the less free we end up… You were offered help from someone that you thought was part of your actual [on line] community (rather than government) who in fact was misrepresenting themselves. At the time and with the available inforation, this was more appealing than turning to the government…
If MM really cared about his wife he would have sended it without telling Jimk who it was from or shown it in this video.
MM like to do this kind of things to make himself look better constanly,its disgusting.
Do anyone here actually belive MM did this because he cared at all?
Now who here wouldn’t have taken money for his wife sickness even though it came from the biggest scumbag.
I can tell you this that if hitler or stalin sended money and my mom was dying even myself would take it and use it,that doesnt mean these guys are good guys in anyway and that I changed my mind about them.
NWM a person who always disliked my grandma sended her some flowers when she was dying in Cancer,now im sure some of you hippies think that was a nice gesture but its just sick,and disgusting.
MM can fuckhimself.
Oh btw Sweden with its social healthcare putted my grandma on a fucking waiting list until she died,mayby you should use that ex MM inb your fucking film.
If there had been any good private cancer healthcare here atleast she would had have a fucking chance,instead of being on a fucking waitinglist until she died.
I also love how this fucking douchbag talk with a sad voice and play sad music when he talks about Jimks voice.
People who wanna make themself look better through someones sickness and misery is just disgusting.
What a fucking cheapshot,you dirtbag,if you really had cared you wouldn’t have taken it up in the movie and done it in private with JIMK and let him announce it if that was the case and he accepted it.
WHO THE FUCK IS BUYING THIS SHIT?
OMG, MM IS THE BIGGEST DOUCHEBAG EVER TO HAVE SET FOOT ON THIS PLANET.
But I rather say it in Swedish what I feel…
MM är en jävla mediahora som suger kuk,men som även äter en om han får chansen,ta dig i arslet din feta äckliga CP micheal moore och använd aldrig mer sjuka människors hopplösa situation för att få dig själv att se bra ut igen.
I doubt if we’ll be seeing much of you max.
Especially when you state a lie like this:
And you have less than nothing to back up your claim that he sued you.
There’s a difference between threat and actually happening.
Max,
JimK also wrote:
I see you’ve adopted the “change the subject” posture again. If you can’t talk about Moore at all, just say so and we can finish this here and now.
If he bans you, take heart in knowing it’s probably not because of your opinions, whatever they happen to be. It’s because you couldn’t stay on topic if it were glued to your feet. You’re a one-hit wonder, and none of us are moved by the song you’ve chosen. You still haven’t corrected your own lies, and until you do your continued frothing is nothing but laughable.
There’s a difference between threat and actually happening.
True, but only if your handle isn’t Max Singer.
Posted by quez on 06/13 at 04:56 PM (Link to this comment)
“I can tell you this that if hitler or stalin sended money and my mom was dying even myself would take it and use it,that doesnt mean these guys are good guys in anyway and that I changed my mind about them.”
Actually it would be a moral good IMO. If you get the money from the likes of them, its that much less money they could use to cause trouble (weapons, death camps, et cetera)....
Couple comments.... first of all… there are public run hospitals in the U.S., after all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Drew
Here’s one in L.A., which is currently under investigation because of how poorly it is run. Atm, they have 23 days, I believe, to account for a woman dying on the floor of the lobby while vomiting blood without anyone trying to help her. In fact, her boyfriend and another witness both called 911 from WITHIN the hospital because she wasn’t being assisted.
Second, the idea that there’s no treatment if you can’t afford it isn’t true. In january I had a friend here visiting the U.S. and she had needed to get some tests done and the doctor referred her to the emergency room of the neighboring hospital. They went through full diagnostics even though she had no means to pay for it at the time and instead I’ve had to forward bills home to her as the billing only happened after. Though in full openness, she has said that she prefers the Australian health care system.
Posted by Libertarian Librarian on 06/13 at 03:53 PM
You couldn’t find one person in Europe or Canada that would gladly trade their healthcare for ours.
First of all, that’s such a tremendously heaping pile of steaming bullshit that you can both see and smell it from miles away.
If every European and Canadian out there as soooo 100% satisfied with their healthcare system, then why do we see so many of our hospitals treating flyovers and northern border crossers on a daily fucking basis?!?!?
And, though I know it’s not some Canadian shining city or European megalopolis… Sweden has a pretty (way far fucking left) liberal socialized government, including their healthcare system.
And… ummm… isn’t that where you’re from, quez?
Maybe Librarian would be kind enough to explain why
people like you, who are incredibly disgusted with their
socialized medical programs, just don’t count?
Educate the man, quez.
I miss Max.
I mean, I’m sure he was just about to answer all those questions we asked him, and address all the rampant bullshit he was spewing, and the gross inconsistencies I brought up to him… but then you had to go and boot him, Jim… just before he totally redeemed himself. Damn.
Oh, hey, Toby… by the way… welcome aboard.
To think, when you first came here, you were defending Moore.
I really wish more of the recent Moore defenders would follow your example, and open their ears and minds to let a little truth seep in.
Ah well… I guess you can’t save ‘em all.
Still, it does my heart good to know that for every dozen Max’s out there, there’s someone like you who isn’t yet zombified by Moore.
Cheers.
1.I posted your contradictory posts on the subject.
Not contradictory, -1 for lack of reading comprehension.
2.There no posts on this site or any news items indicating Moore threatened to sue you or moorewatch.
Except you said yourself that you read such posts. What were you just saying about contradicting oneself?
3.You must fancy yourself a martyr for your cause: “Look at the evil lefty millionaire threatening to sue poor little webmaster Jimmy, boo hoo!”
Hooray for ad hom statements from the self-appointed Minister of Factually Supported Points.
4. You offer no specific names or potential plaintiffs, lawyers, law firms, etc.
Say something like that again and I’ll sue your ass.
Now, please demonstrate to everyone here that I threatened to sue you. Please remember that, per your own criteria, we cannot accept your demonstration unless you name specific names, plaintiffs, lawyers, law firms, etc.
5. I guess your “proof” consists of “I posted it at moorewatch.”
I guess your “proof” consists of “I know what happened between two unrelated parties, simply because I say that’s what happened”.
On the bright side, I have to give kudos for disseminating your idiocy in short, easily digestible enumerations.
Speaking of the rare-but-treasured rational lefties out there,
has anyone seen Up4 lately?
I’m starting to get worried that the Soros crowd found him, tied him to a chair, pried open his eyelids with toothpicks and are “deprogramming” him with an unending rotating marathon of Michael Moore films and replayed episodes of “The View”, or something.
Speaking of the rare-but-treasured rational lefties out there,
has anyone seen Up4 lately?
Yeah . . . he checked in a few days ago.
Jim, please don’t ban Max—we need him around for entertainment value. Sure, he may not have addressed any questions… or stayed on topic… but at least he’s not as vituperatively ignorant as some of the other drive-bys lately.
Um, I saw someone ask, but I don’t think it ever got an answer… is the money order in the film the same sent to JimK? Idea being that this proves it was all preplanned and not wrestled with? Or was it a second “fake” money order? Also, were those actual routing numbers on the bottom? I’ve only used money orders once (to fix a warrant) so I’m not sure if routing numbers are the same as they are no a check. I would hope (although would not be surprised) they wouldn’t be routing numbers that can be used maliciously.
I see it’s dated May 5, 2006… also I thought JimK said something about the bank name showing up in MI, but Washington Mutual (nice plug BTW) is based out of Buffalo, NY. So I’m thinking it’s staged since a google for WaMu shows no GMaps references.
As a side note to JimK, thank you for allowing such entertaining discussion. I’m not currently mentally able to absorb and respond to the bullshit spewing from these so called Moore-ons fingers, but maybe after a good nights sleep I will be able to jump in and contribute more to this site.
Mr Lowbacca questions whether it really is:
important to show the bad sides of a society in order to improve it
Yes, to provide a remedy you first have to establish the symptoms of the disease. Moore does that in his documentaries. And he got an Oscar for it.
Lowbacca then goes on to say that people overseas:
are usually smart enough to tell the difference between a particular administration and the people of a nation themselves.
Well, you elected Bush in the first place, and elected him again after four years of failure, so you are responsible.
A Swede, I never said there is anything wrong with exposing problems, however Moore hurts the dialog far more than he helps it because he fills the debate with misinformation which prevents a healthy discussion. One can expose problems and be truthful, however Moore chooses to distort and it shifts the discussion to trying to simply identify the facts rather than the actual issue. Example, Bowling for Columbine does bring up a good issue of why there is gun violence in the U.S. on the levels we have without it being tied to gun ownership (yes, he does make this point) however he does so much misleading in the movie, such as his edits of the Heston speeches, that it casts doubts on any claims he makes and it severely hampers any discussion that could be had about why gun crimes are more common in the U.S., especially the shooting sprees. Had he simply kept to facts, honesty, and an upfront nature, a much more productive dialogue could’ve taken place rather than having to filter through all the half-truths and fabrications he put into that movie.
As for the second part, first of all, I did say “usually” so of course, you’re free to exempt yourself from that statement. I’m not sure if you understand how American democracy works, so I’ll explain it to you. First of all, a little over 20% of the American public voted for Bush. So, roughly speaking, 4 out of 5 Americans you meet didn’t vote for him. Granted, I’m working with the total public, so in situations such as this, that someone is, say, old enough to type does filter out children that can’t vote but count to total population.
Second, I’m 22. I COULDN’T vote during the 2000 election.
Third, I live in California and my vote in 2004 had nothing to do with who the state as a whole went to.
Fourth, and a personal interest of mine, give me 3 reasons why YOU would have voted for John Kerry and why you thought he was a strong candidate without referencing a shortcoming of Bush’s.
Fifth, you make the assumption that I support Bush, which I do not. I was strongly opposed to the idea of invading Iraq because I did not believe that Iraq was our biggest issue and I didn’t think he had weapons of mass destruction. I’ll note that not thinking he had WMDs seperated me, at the time, not just from the Republicans, but also the Democrats who said that he had WMDs, but didn’t think we should invade due to that. I also strongly disagree with Bush’s ethnically biased immigration proposals.
Sixth, you use the term failure when while he’s had some major shortcomings and some definite issues of judgement, the United States also managed to see growth during his first term, even though we had not only 9/11 but the dot com boom that had been looming through the late 90s. So economically, the U.S. has done a pretty good job of enduring even though there have been some shortcomings elsewhere, and simple words like ‘failure’ don’t sum up the situation accurately but just indicate that you’re unfamiliar with the complexities of his presidency.
Seventh, and I’d like to see your responce to this given your logic above as it relates to being responsible. You’re Swedish. Your prime minister is Reinfelt, described (albeit on wikipedia) as “one of Europe’s new conservative leaders”. In 2000, Reinfelt was in the U.S. in 2000 supporting Bush’s campaign for president. In 2004, Reinfelt said in an interview with the Stockholm City that he supported Bush over Kerry (March 8th). Now, and here’s the fun, I’m responsible as an American because the American people elected Bush, as you so kindly pointed out. You, as a Swede, are responsible for Reinfelt being the Prime Minister of Sweden. Further, as Reinfelt supported Bush for both his 2000 and 2004 campagins, Reinfelt is in part responsible for Bush being elected, and as you are responsible for Reinfelt since he’s YOUR prime minister, you are also therefore responsible, in part, for Bush being the current president of the United States of America. And I’m sure I could’ve worked Kevin Bacon in there somewhere as well.
Anyway, while I think you should at least read though all that, the fourth reason is really the only one thats a question to answer rather than a point of information.
Americans are very defensive, I been on the net a LONG LONG time and back in the day it was just Americans and a few other people dotted round the world, we were very backward compared to you guys in getting on the net....
You notice that, you notice that I can deprecate my country and myself as being behind you in something? It comes easily to most other nations because we don’t bring up our children on the fallacy that we are the greatest in the world.
Back in the day I had huge arguments with Republican Americans, on everything from gun control to public services like health care and pensions, and they usually became very heated, like the discussions on here, because Americans can’t take criticism, it is not in your nature to accept it easily. Americans generally become very defensive the moment you deprecate their country in anyway.
So it comes as no surprise to me to see Michael Moore attacked so virulently when his films pretty much try to show Americans that instead of being the greatest country in the world, you are actually no better then anyone else, and in many respects you are far far worse off.
All around the world you will find people that will say they love their country, I am very nationalistic when it comes to England, I love my country and feel extremely lucky that I live here I am glad I was born English, I can criticise it and highlight the problems with it without losing that love, but what you won’t find many of in this country or any other European countries is the belief that we are better then everyone else.
I have meet far too many Americans who beleive they are better then everyone else, and I expect if this is posted the replies to be along the lines of “Yes we are the greatest, we are better then everyone else” it is this belief that propels you to attack people like Michael Moore who question that belief and force you to look outside your own country and realise that while yes America is a great country, it doesn’t deserve the right to call itself better then anyone else.
I do also have one question to the Moore Bashers on this site.
In the overall feel of the movie Sicko, do you think Moore’s stance was wrong? Do you feel that the American System is better then the system provided by other western countries?
Forget the little details, the mistakes, the ommissions the bending of the truth of the “trickery of editing”
Do you think he is wrong, do you think that America treats its sick better then other countries or do you think they provide a better service in countries where Health Care is universal?
If you answer that you agree with Michael Moore, then I think the details are irrelevent, Lowbacca argues that it is more damaging then it is beneficial because it distorts the argument.
I disagree, anything that brings something that you agree on into the public domain, that shines a light on it and forces people to evaluate the situation, regardless of whether you think every detail was right or wrong is far more important then whether he edited something out or didn’t bother putting in a piece of information.
On the defensiveness… I think a large factor is also that there is a “its hip to be anti-American” phenomenon. I’d say there’s definitly some issues re: America that I think could be improved upon. How America handles immigration is one, the lawsuit-happy nature of the U.S. is another. Personally, I cringe every time I hear statistics on how familiar Americans are with science and its why I think our education system is in dire need of improvement. On the other hand, I’m also proud to be an American, and proud of the freedoms America was designed to allow its citizens. Though the attacks on America BECAUSE its America get tiring at some point.
As for Sicko, its a matter people are already having to evaluate here (as in America). Its not as though he brought up something no one is aware of, at least not in the basic premise of questions with how the health care system works. However, and this is probably the skeptic and scientist in me, I think that there is a very big problem when the data being used even to get attention is faulty. Its the issue I have with Moore using half truths and fabrications in his movies, the issues I’ve had with Bush using the more speculative claims to argue for war in Iraq, the issues I have with people that use annecdotes and statistical anomolies for discussing global warming rather than trends, the people that create strawmen to argue against evolution and the big bang without realising how the scientific process works and my frustration with the current illegal immigration debate in the United States that is being dominated by political correctness. I don’t think you CAN reach a correct conclusion unless you are using correct data, and especially on situations where one could easily use correct data, I think misleading and fabricating is actively sabatoging the attempt to find real solutions. Its further that I don’t think there’s any good reason, for example, that Moore should have created evidence and misled in Fahrenheit 9/11 when it would be EXTREMELY easy simply to use fact to show the faults with the Bush administration without sensationalism.
Forgot to add, I’m trying to not comment on Sicko directly at this point because, except for the clip JimK linked to, I’ve not seen it. And I won’t see it until some time in August. So I can’t comment directly on what specifics he brings up.
Though I’d add that I don’t like the idea of socialised health care because I feel the gov’t has much more ground to try to legislate behavior when they’re paying for my health care versus when I’m paying for my health care.
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I’m an American living in Germany for a couple years,married to a German and all I do when I go to the doctor or the hospital is show my medical card and 10€ for any and all medications. Europe considers medical care the primary source of responsibility to the community like the police and firefighters. Universal care started in 1948 in Britian after the country was in tatters and decided that every man woman and child has a god given right to life and medicine. But hey defend multibillion dollar corporations that would deny you your life to pad their stockholders pockets.
Also just saw Sicko and was floored. This movie is gonna shatter the boxoffice. Ya know, cause only 10% of the country agrees with anything he says. I had some problems with his earlier stuff. (mostly philosophical differences) but this one is unmatched