All his other hatefulness and own deserving of death aside:

sicko was an amazing film

... That’s not actually out yet? Loyal Moore fan must have downloaded it from the torrent you linked, tch. (Or he’s just naturally assuming, since how could the Great Lord Moore make anything less than a masterpiece?)

I can kinda I guess understand being upset with you if they are Moore supporters but really....WHy do these people say such ignorant and mean things like wishing and hoping Donna would die? I mean, for all your disagreements with Moore you have never wished that on him or one of his loved ones. That is just at a level that no human should go to. How would these people feel if someone was wishing thier wife/partner/loved was dead?

"Throw (somebody’s) money at people and they will love you” was cribbed directly from the The Bono, who preaches that if we give generously to the Third World it’ll somehow be obliged, nay, inspired to stop hating and start loving us.

Let us take a moment to look at some bygone lyrics from The Bono that might, in a certain and re-imagined context (ala moore), have some relevance on this thread:

“Tonight thank God it’s them, instead of you...”

Jim, every time you post one of those little gems, I don’t know which to be more shocked about… that someone could be so small-minded and cruel, or that they had no problem whatsoever sending that along and thereby *advertising* that they are small-minded and cruel.

*LOL* What’s more, that looks like a legit email address its coming from. Now if you’re going to send hate mail, that *is* dumb.

Wishing death upon loved ones is “par for the course” for extreme left wingers.

During a discussion I had with a liberal he wished death upon my child.  In fact, my wife who was 8 weeks pregnant had passed away from a blood clot in the brain only 2 months prior.  When he learned this fact he was un-repentant and said he would say it again if given the chance.

Imagine, if you will, that President Bush annonces that all American citizens will be covered by health insurance paid for by the government. Every American citizen will now have insurance coverage.

Now does this mean that the Bush Administration should not be critizied when they do something wrong? You got problems with Iraq? Shutup! I gave you free insurance. Do not like how immigration is being handled? You f***ing ingrate...I gave you free healthcare, you ungrateful bastard. How dare you question President Bush after giving you free healthcare.

This is exactly what I do not understand about these people who come along and say that because JimK was given $12K that he should just stop exposing Moore’s cheap editing tricks and alteration of facts.

Could you imagine if JimK posted something like “You know, I criticized Moore on how he handled Charleton Heston in his movie BFC, but now I realize that he was fair and spot on in the way he edited the scenes together. It is amazing how a little green can allow someone to see how wrong they were. Praise MM.”

This has been brought up before, but these people seem to have the idea that JimK’s silence is set at 12K. If this is the case, then I have to wonder how people like Loren Brent can be bought off wtih a few bucks.

I say we take up a collection, send Loren Brent $500 or so, then demand that he/she/it must not only never be allowed to say anything negative about conservatives again, but that he/she/it stand outside a local screening of “Sicko”, yelling rabid obscenities at anyone who enters the theater.

...I mean, if not, then he/she/it is an ungrateful hypocrite, right?

...Oh, and we have to leave the money in a bag on his/her/it’s front porch, and not mention who gave it until after it’s spent.

And if it fails, we just demand the money back.

...right?

You can rant as much as you want, but it’s pretty clear who has the most character between the two of you.

I respect your right to do what you want with your life, but you’ve gotta realize how pathetic things have gotten for you.

No hate, though, just truckloads of pity.  Hope she’s well.

If you didn’t need the money, by the way, send it back.  Or, are you that hypocritical?

Yeah, I figured so.

HMOd,

Have you brought nothing new?  Just the same old misunderstanding of what “hypocritical” means?  This is how you choose to introduce youself to new people?

Yeah, I figured so.

For the record, I consider myself to be a moderate liberal. I’m a fan of Moore, not because his documentaries are 100% accurate (they clearly aren’t...), but because enough people see his movies, and that the issues that he brings up are actually discussed...instead of the usual garbage about Paris Hilton and the like.

That said, I just can’t understand all this hate. It was very nice of Moore to send the money, but he clearly benefited from it by putting it in the film, and wasn’t entirely accurate with its representation. Reading your previous posts, I think you were very honest and gracious toward Moore’s gift...and of course you have every right to question his motives.

Posted by enkv on 06/13 at 08:58 PM (Link to this comment)

“but because enough people see his movies, and that the issues that he brings up are actually discussed...instead of the usual garbage about Paris Hilton and the like.”

Moore makes it hard to have an honest discussion about anything… after he throws out so many inaccuracies… and plays up how ‘bad’ the other side is (re: us). Cheers

Well, I can understand enkv’s point in liking Moore’s work for getting stuff discussed, and I do agree that people should talk about real issues much more than they currently do, and the newest celebrity junk much less. Where I’d disagree, though, is that I think that debate is harmed when it is triggered by misinformation.

You can rant as much as you want, but it’s pretty clear who has the most character between the two of you.

Yes. It really is quite clear.

And yet you seem to have a tough time seeing it. Maybe you should have that checked out.

"too bad your wife didn’t die” what has she done,tell us Loren.

You sick fuck.
Hoping people with sickness to die,what a fucking low-life you’re-

I thought I’d come and say hello to y’all. I got hold of a copy from bitorrent. No point in watching a film like this in the cinema IMO. I’ll probably buy the DVD for the extras (before you jump on me for piracy).

Anyway, I’ve got to say I laughed when Moore showed the post thanking the anonymous donor, but i do feel it would have been more appropriate to be upfront about who he was. I’m guessing the donation would still have been accepted because times were hard. Also, a less vitriolic dialogue may have been opened up.

to the poster: No sane person wishes death on anyone unless they’ve committed some personal atrocity against them, so that was out of order. You should be ashamed.
As for Moore himself, I’ve got to say that he seems to be a necessary force to counter these corporations who fuck over a supposedly free people. However you edit the footage, children are dying every week because their insurance claim is wiggled out of by these ‘hitmen’ who work for the companies.

Anyway, my 2 cents. Pleased to meet you :)

At the risk of drifting off-topic, Pete, how are we only a “supposedly” free people?

People like Loren Brent scare me.  You feel that JimK should completely change his views and beliefs just because he was given money?  I suppose you think Judas Iscariot is an OK kinda guy because he took money to change his beliefs?  Damn! And then you spout off wishing that his wife would have died??

I wish you much worse than death, Loren, much worse.  I wish you....the curse of inconvenience....for the rest of your life, and I hope it’s a long one.

How are you a supposedly free people?

Seeing as you asked…

Patriot act, corporate lobbying, your minimum wage is little more than a slave would expect, imprisonment for flag burning, no gay rights, increasing bans on abortion, 15% of blacks can’t vote (criminal record), multi million prison population (prisoners lose their jobs, start stealing, go to jail where they’re re-hired by corporations for 3rd world wages), people are offered a year in prison instead of ten in exchange for giving up a fair trial.

I could wear my fingers down to the bone with this, but i’ll stop.

I’m not anti-american, which is why this stuff breaks my heart. When i meet americans over here it’s like i’m talking to my own and it pisses me off what the government gets away with.

You can not go to jail for burning a flag. Repression of political speech is a European trait.

Our minimum wage would allow someone to live like royalty in many countries. How does the government mandating what employers must pay, or the wage workers may accept, constitute an increase in freedom? Incidentally, I have never been paid minimum wage. Even working part time in high school, when I had absolutely no qualifications or education I was paid at least $2/hr more.

No one claimed prisoners are free.

I won’t defend the situation in America’s criminal justice system or prisons, but the majority of the problems are caused by too much government, rather than not enough, and increasing the amount of government is antithetical to increasing freedom.

I would, however, concede that our freedoms our violated when we are fined or sanctioned for the things we do to our own bodies, or the risks we voluntarily subject ourselves to. Like not wearing a seatbelt or helmet, or choosing to enter a bar where others are smoking. Of course these are examples of things that our benign loving government does because it knows what’s best for us, and by Pete’s logic, increases in freedom.

okay. forgive me, but i thought flag burning was on the agenda. Turns out (bizarrely) that it was the confederate flag that someone went to jail for setting alight. Repression of political speech is not a european trait as far as I can tell. There was a million man protest in london against the war. I also remember a bush/blair comparison of public Q&A;sessions. The UK audience were asking questions like: why are you still in office, and bush’s questions were along the lines of ‘i think you’re great’.

Stage managed love fest Vs. Honest public discourse: Which is the indicator of a free society?

Posted by PeteMate on 06/14 at 10:41 AM

I could wear my fingers down to the bone with this, but i’ll stop.

Considering that most of it was incorrect or meaningless without context...thanks.

PeteMate, if Americans were being paid that poorly, there wouldn’t be an outsourcing problem. As for both the percentage of blacks that can’t vote (and for many states thats just while in prison) and people taking plea bargins… those are choices those people made. Those choices have repercusions, but still choices.
I’d also reemphasize that flag burning is not something one can be arrested for, and that there are gay rights in most situations, with just some issues still being debated. Not the best of situations, but definitly not ‘no’.

Where is ‘here’ for you, ooc?

PeteMate, on the “Repression of political speech is not a european trait as far as I can tell.”
How many European countries arrest Holocaust deniers? While I think what they say is reprehensible, the American view is that they can still say it.

Pete, no need to wear your fingers to the bone, I just wanted to know how long until the jack-booted thugs came to whisk me away. And it turns out that, despite your cartoonish vision… they’re not.

I’m from the UK. We don’t like holocaust denial, but it’s not a crime. I think germany probably have such laws because what happened in WWII is deeply shameful and they don’t like it being brought up… like the elephant in the room that no-one talks about.The whole outsourcing problem is that american minimum wage is about £3.00 and mexicans are greatful to work for £0.50.
The real problem is that the govt. allows this and STILL gives tax breaks to the bastards doing it.

by the way, before you bring up cctv (which can be a bit annoying), google maps is technology probably 10 years behind government capability (if they’re spending the trillions on ‘defense’ wisely)

Repression of political speech is not a european trait as far as I can tell.

So banning political parties, making display of their symbols a crime, or making the expression of certain opinions or positions criminal does not constitute repression? Actually, I have to hold America accountable for some of this too, of course it comes from “liberals”, in the form of speech codes at universities and other places. I hadn’t heard about the confederate flag, but there was recently an incident at a university involving an Iranian flag, the burning of which is “hate speech”. Burning a US flag is quite alright, however.

Stage managed love fest Vs. Honest public discourse: Which is the indicator of a free society?

You must be joking. You think the US media has not been critical of Bush?

By the way, there is no such thing as a “gay right” rights are unalienable and universal. Each community does not have its own set.

Ok, yeah, the UK doesn’t, but France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Switzerland all have laws against Holocaust deniers and Italy handles it under laws against hate speech, which as I recall was also being used against an author that wrote some stuff critical of Islam.

Anyway, the outsourcing issue, you point out as a problem but then also keep in mind that the minimum wage of the U.S. is a factor because then there’s no reason to operate in the U.S. and just hire the particularly unskilled workers. I’d also add that at closest, I worked 25 cents above the minimum wage, though that was california minimum wage which is a good couple dollars above the federal.

The real problem is that the govt. allows this

So what your actually advocating is less freedom because you feel there is a good reason for doing so.

So what your actually advocating is less freedom because you feel there is a good reason for doing so.

corporate freedom to screw over skilled and unskilled staff while receiving tax breaks due to corrupt lobbying is basically giving carte blanche to the rich at the expense of the general population. not exactly conducive to a free and civilised society.

And suddenly it’s all about those evil rich people. Pete’s obviously getting a good workout hauling those goalposts around.

I’m not anti-american,

You’re just a liar.

Rich people aren’t necessarily evil. people who become rich off the backs off the poor are scum.

And no, YOU’RE a liar. See how constructive this is?

So like I said, you feel the ends are justified so you’re willing to sacrifice some freedom. The position is not without merit--it is after all the foundation of constitutional republicanism and western democracy, but at least be honest about what we’re talking about.

I think there has to be a cutoff point that we can still class as a good level of freedom. Absolute freedom obviously can’t exist (the right to kill vs. the right not to be killed), so parameters need to be in place to bring a fair balance.I believe an individual’s right not to be poisoned to death takes precedence over pfizer’s right to buy their way out of the shit when they fuck things up.And I was being honest when i said i have no anti-american sentiment. I worry about the increasing power of the government that is spitting on the founding father’s vision of what america would be. Anti government is not a bias against a nation.

people who become rich off the backs off the poor are scum.

How else can one become rich unless they screw workers?

PeteMate, to be fair though, you mention being concerned with the increasing power of government, but you’ve also suggested that the government should be involved more elsewhere. Given the track record of the government, I’m not one to trust them to act properly in most situations.

you mention being concerned with the increasing power of government, but you’ve also suggested that the government should be involved more elsewhere. Given the track record of the government, I’m not one to trust them to act properly in most situations.

Does the USAPATRIOT act not concern you? it scares the hell out of me, and I’m thousands of miles away (until fall at least). Just because there’s corruption now… it doesn’t mean there always will be. It’s a little despondent to suggest that washington will never be clean of all this.maybe hilary’s not too far in bed with big business to try and affect positive change.I think corporate crime needs greater scrutiny by the government.Corruption on a small scale (gangland drugs, violence etc) can ruin a few individuals/families lives. Corruption on a big scale (toxic waste etc) can cause genetic abnormalities in entire towns for the next 20 generations… if those affected are actually still fit to procreate.

How else can one become rich unless they screw workers?

Oh dear. I hope that’s sarcasm.

Oh dear. I hope that’s sarcasm.

No, I’m just wonder exactly what you define as scum . . . you know those people who become rich off the backs of the poor?  Name some.

We all agree with some balance-point for freedom.  Having the freedom to kill someone takes away their freedom to live, so that one is clear cut and unarguable.  We’re talking about a much less obvious set of freedoms than that, though.

Whenever you give the government the responsibility to manage something, you take the risk of them mismanaging that thing.  As much as the Progressives would like this, you cannot say that one party is allowed great powers when they’re in charge, but the other party is denied those same powers when they happen to win elections.  Powers are given to governments, not parties...and they’re rarely ever given back.

Regarding the Patriot Act, a lot of people are not happy about it.  When actions are taken under its provisions that may violate Constitutional rights, you can bet there will be lawsuits.  Most of it has a sunset provision, so it will eventually go away.  But the threat it poses has been largely hypothetical, with few if any real-world examples.

I’m not quite following you anymore.  You’re terrified of the Patriot Act, which was passed by our democratic process, yet you have faith in Hillary (who voted FOR the Patriot Act) to act for everybody’s welfare.  You say that government may not always be bad, so we might as well turn over important functions to it.  How can you advocate that with a government whose provisions you’re terrified of?  Will you be so terrified of the Patriot Act if Hillary wins in 2008?

Does the USAPATRIOT act not concern you? it scares the hell out of me, and I’m thousands of miles away (until fall at least). Just because there’s corruption now… it doesn’t mean there always will be. It’s a little despondent to suggest that washington will never be clean of all this.maybe hilary’s not too far in bed with big business to try and affect positive change.I think corporate crime needs greater scrutiny by the government.Corruption on a small scale (gangland drugs, violence etc) can ruin a few individuals/families lives. Corruption on a big scale (toxic waste etc) can cause genetic abnormalities in entire towns for the next 20 generations… if those affected are actually still fit to procreate.

It does actually. Not in full, but there are parts that do, definitly. And thats exactly why I don’t like the government having much of any power when it comes to most things. There will always be corruption on some level, and you’d be very hard pressed to name a political structure that is free from corruption. Heck, even bad judgement without malice can be a big problem (enter my Iraq stance). The whole thing is, with how the government handles the things it already has control over, I don’t see any reason why I should trust them with my health. Further, once the government is paying for health care, it gives them a justification for more restrictions on lifestyle.

I’m not about to name names seeing as my face and location are pretty much public. if i were to google ‘US job losses’ ‘downsizing’ and ‘corporate corruption’ certain people will probably keep popping up in the results.

I’m not about to name names seeing as my face and location are pretty much public. if i were to google ‘US job losses’ ‘downsizing’ and ‘corporate corruption’ certain people will probably keep popping up in the results.

Ah . . . corporations who downsize and those excutives who run the company.  I got laid off once . . . am I a victim of scum?

I’m not quite following you anymore.  You’re terrified of the Patriot Act, which was passed by our democratic process, yet you have faith in Hillary (who voted FOR the Patriot Act) to act for everybody’s welfare.  You say that government may not always be bad, so we might as well turn over important functions to it.  How can you advocate that with a government whose provisions you’re terrified of?  Will you be so terrified of the Patriot Act if Hillary wins in 2008?

I get the feeling that eveyone was so shocked by 9/11, there was no option of dissent. I would hope that the patriot act is put to bed by the next president. I doubt a republican would give up the power so easily. guliani’s words after 9/11 were ‘thank god (bad start) that george bush is our president’

Ah . . . corporations who downsize and those excutives who run the company.  I got laid off once . . . am I a victim of scum?

it seems to happen to you guys a hell of a lot. It happens over here too, but not nearly as often. Workers rights seem a little shaky in the US to say the least.

I’m not about to name names seeing as my face and location are pretty much public. if i were to google ‘US job losses’ ‘downsizing’ and ‘corporate corruption’ certain people will probably keep popping up in the results.

Nortel even dimly ring a bell?

on the subject, is it true you can be a temp in states for over a decade? that’s one way they screw people i believe.

I’m not familiar with them, so i googled a little. Seems like small fry compared to the really profitable PLC’s