Now I must really say, thought I actually respect Lee, who usually makes sense and I agree, there must be wrong inside UK if it let`s down it`s so far glorius system that Moore waves around.

However, I my self believe that it`s not completely
it`s fault as Lee says, but rather in my humble opinion a transformation from the close relations with the UK and USA. I mean, those two have been throught tough times, including some critisim, but they have come into close relations and that`s why propably UK so relias upon USA so economicla that can do those devilis acts.

Thought you are totally right Lee, this fact that you show us totally proves, that there are holes, clear holes in the UK system, I find it myself that not all the holes are not made by themslefs by rather by friendship.

my god...every system has holes...now, must articles and comments in this page have to do with UK, Cuba...is there in this website one related to USA in an active way? (this is not a sarcastic question), u know, something that instead of pointing other countries mistakes, shows us all visitors of this site how wonderful USA really is...i´m more interested in that (seriously, seems that Moore knows what i´m talking about)

This article is without doubt the most idiotic piece that I have seen on the Web this year.

The UK is a capitalist society - I know this because i live here (I have also lived in the US - so, unlike the author, I am in a position to comment objectively).

We have a free market here (unlike the US, which ruthlessly protects its own industries against foreign competition).

How could any sane person use the fact that the NHS awarded a contract to a foreign supplier as an indication that we don’t have a free market. The lack of logic in this argument is quite staggering.

Oh, and another thing - the NHS is by no means perfect and I am not suggesting that it is. But having actually lived with the US and UK Health services (we have one child born under each) I can say without any doubt in my mind whatsever, that the one single thing that Americans should sit up and take notice of is healthcare. Free universal healthcare is not something to be scared of, it really is something quite amazing. In the Land of The Free, you should realise that knowing that you won’t die just because you haven’t got enough money is actually the greatest feedom that you could possibly have.

Our taxes are high enough already, thank you. “Free” universal health care isn’t actually free, is it? It’s really a way of taking money from people who earned it and then giving it to people who didn’t.

Let’s say I live in the UK, and I work 20 years and never get sick. In 20 years, I’ve probably spent a substantial amount of money on health care through taxes. Now in year 21, I get sick. I have 20 years worth of cash paid into the system. Does that mean I get better quality care? I’ve already paid for 20 years of health care, so don’t I deserve the benefit of 20 years worth of contributions?

The answer is, of course not. I get what everyone else gets. I have to wait in the same lines and fill out the same forms as everyone else. That’s fair, I suppose, but is it indicative of a free market? Do I get to choose my doctor? My hospital? Do I get access to the 20 years worth of money to pay for my care?

Explain how the NHS represents a “free market” when the government takes your money without asking, and then rations care.

The last thing I want is for the government to make yet another decision that I should be making for myself.

Nothing is ‘free’ you aRE RIGHT OF COURSE - THE QUESTION IS WHETHER IT IS BETTER TO (dAMN THIS cAP’S lOCk!) pay as part of your tax or pay to a private Healthcare insurer who will take a big wedge out of what you pay as profit. In the UK we do pay slightly more tax, but if you, as an American (presumably) add your Health Bill to your tax bill to make a comparison - I’m not sure that you would still be better off. I certainly wasn’t when I lived there.

In answer to your specific questions -

If you work in the Uk and don’t get sick for 20 years - exactly the same thing happens as if you live in the US and pay for Private Healthcare or in fact any other form of insurance (Car, House etc) and don’t claim for 20 years - i.e You ‘lose your money - well, sort of. But when you do get sick in the UK, there is no limit to the amount of free care that will be provided, so that when you get cancer, or have a bad car wreck, you won’t be worrying about your finances at all.

In short, some win some lose - if you find that a problem, ask yourself this: Is it fair that you all pay for a fire service when only some of your houses burn down? Will you be angry or feel cheated if you get through your life and don’t have a house fire - having spent your money putting out only other peoples? in the UK this is how we think of Healthcare - same as you think of the Fire service, the Police, The Armed Forces, The Coastguard etc etc etc - No Difference.

Oh and under the NHS you do get to chose your own doctor (and he will determine your treatment, not an insurance clerk) and if you are not happy with your doctor you can change at any time.

Another thing to note, is that Private Health Care is also available in the UK at a fraction of the cost of US Private Healthcare (See BUPA.com) - And it is cheap because BUPA have to compete with the NHS for business, rather than just forming a Cartel with the other suppliers and bleeding you dry.

It sits here for a week and nothing, then suddenly *bam-bam-bam*.

I’m mildly curious as to who whined and where, not that it really matters.

Oh, come on now, didn’t anyone else get a laugh at this line?!?

unlike the US, which ruthlessly protects its own industries against foreign competition

I don’t see what there is to laugh about.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to get in my Honda and drive away.

You don’t believe that this is true? Want some examples?

Check out what we pay for internal flights in Europe (ryanair.com, easyjet.com, jet2.com)and compare them with what you pay. All of these companies want to come over and set up in the US, but can’t because if they did, in a free market, they would close down the US domestic airlines in about 6 weeks. I have lived in the US and in Europe and have taken many internal flights in both places and know absolutely that this is the truth. You are being ripped off royally every time you fly - but keep smiling about it because you don’t have anyone there who is going to tell you.

American Cars - these are about 15 years behind European and Japanese Cars - you don’t know this of course, because you are so free that you are not allowed to make this judgement.

Also - recently on-line gambling was banned in the US - could this have been because gambling is wrong? No - of course not - you have Las Vegas after all, and Reno. Or could it possibly have been because the big players in Internet Gambling sites are all European owned? What do you reckon?? And how much debate was there in the American media about this assault on free trade?

Do you really think that only American companies are successful in America because they are better than everyone else? Apart from Boeing And Microsoft - who exactly exports anything in any real quantities from the US into a free market?

Fact is, America makes and does nothing that the rest of the world doesn’t make or do better. Apart of course from producing a population that ‘knows’ only two facts - 1) That America is best in all things. And 2) that checking this ‘fact’ usng any information not produced by your own media is ‘Anti-American’

I’m trying to figure out whether this one is stupid, deluded, or just telling outright lies. Can’t decide which one it is.

I’m leaning towards “stupid AND deluded”, that seems like the most plausible.

Yes - that would be it - ‘stupid and deluded’. Thanks for weighing in with that highly intellectual argument. I bow to your superior debating skills.

Did you even consider checking whether what I said was true or not?

It seems to be trying to communicate with me. I’ll try and use simplistic speech to respond to it.

Ahem.

You see, little boy, when someone says things like you have said, in grown-up society it is up to the person that said those things to show that what they have said is the truth. Most of all if they are making claims that are very, very silly.

If I were to say something equally silly as you have said… oh, let’s say, if I were to say that your mother was literally a warthog… why, you’d probably need some actual proof, such as a picture of yourself sliding out of a warthog’s vagina. (That’s a word for “lady parts”.)

So, little boy, until you can show that what you are saying is the truth, I’m afraid the adults are going to keep treating you like a very, very stupid child who’s having a tantrum. Okay? Okay.

Thank you - you’ve proved my point better than I ever could.

Yes, I can certainly see how my calling you a moron spontaneously generated proof of all of your allegations. Who knew that comparing technological superiority of cars could be proved by my calling somebody’s mother a warthog? Learn something new every day.

To respond to the “fire service” argument… I live in rural Maine, and we don’t have professional firefighters in my town. If a house in town were to catch fire, a crew of volunteer firefighters would show up and do the best they could to battle the blaze. I’m sure that fire stations in Portland and Bangor receive state and federal money. So, once again, I’m paying for a service that I don’t get to take advantage of. Same goes for the police department. If there’s a problem, they send State Police, who are at least 40 miles away. But I have to pay sales tax, income tax, gas tax, and property tax, presumably to help pay for these kinds of programs. I’m also ineligible for heating assistance and free health care because I actually have a job and go to work. For me, this isn’t some intellectual exercise, it’s how things are. I work and pay taxes so that other people can sit at home and not work, and receive fire protection, police protection, housing assistance, heating assistance, health care, job assistance, education and a bunch of other social programs, none of which are available to me. (With the exception of the job center. I can go in there and look up jobs on their computer, or I can sit at home and look up the same jobs on my computer.)

Now that’s just for the State of Maine. I’d rather not have to do the same thing for the rest of the country too.

If I add my tax bill to my health bill, I’ll end up with my tax bill. See, I work for a publicly funded school, financed with tax dollars. They keep my hours less than 40 per week, so I can’t be classified as a full time employee, and therefore I am entitled to 0 benefits. Not-for-profit does not mean generous, nor does it mean fair, or filled with goodwill. It means they spend every dime they take in. In the case of schools, it’s usually more than they take in. Of course all of that money isn’t improving the quality of education. If you want a good education, go to a privately funded school that has to compete for students.

I have yet to see a social program do what it’s supposed to do. No matter how noble the original idea, they all fail, because people who have no incentive to get off their butts and work will not get off their butts and work.

Let’s take China as an example. You may have noticed the economic boom that has been going on there, and if you haven’t, I suggest reading Lee’s blog, www.leeinchina.com. There, you will see that once China began adding the profit-motive to its economy, things began to improve.

The government’s sole purpose is to secure the individual liberty of its citizens by protecting the borders and enforcing laws written within the confines of the Constitution. It is not a money machine, a babysitter, a hospital, or any other kind of charitable organization. Health care is not a right, it is a service provided by a professional. Not having insurance doesn’t kill people. It’s diseases, accidents, or other people doing the killing.

I have yet to see a social program do what it’s supposed to do. No matter how noble the original idea, they all fail, because people who have no incentive to get off their butts and work will not get off their butts and work.

Aye. Kruta’s law: Any system with the potential for abuse will be abused to its maximum potential.
This is applicable to pretty much every system of government. Originally, the Constitutional form of government we *used* to run under attempted to limit every avenue of abuse the Founding Fathers could anticipate. As we’ve steered away from their original ideals, we’ve opened the doors to more and more abuses, such as this idiotic idea of “socialized healthcare.”

American cars are about 15 years behind European and Japanese cars...but the Chinese like them:

In the long run, the rivalry in the auto industry is shifting to new markets with enormous potential, including China, Russia, South America and other regions where a growing middle class is expected to snatch up cars. And in China, GM is well ahead of Toyota in sales.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/10/business/toyota.php

Now, about those European automakers...would those be the ones owned by Ford, or the ones owned by GM?

Who exports anything from the US into a free market? Well, I just read an article about iPhones being popular in China and Russia, and they’re not even legally supposed to be sold there. So not only are things being exported to these countries by an American company, they’re actually being SMUGGLED in.

(Face it, most manufacturing is done in China, by American and European compaines)

How about Coke? Pepsi? McDonalds? F-15 fighters? Rap Music? Films? Television shows? refined oil? Plastic? Pharmaceuticals? Guns? Wheat, corn, beef, Jack Daniels whiskey, California Wine (Last I heard, California had something like the 6th largest GDP in the world).

Xbox 360, Activision games, Electronic Arts games. Microchip manufacturing machines...Intel is headquartered in the U.S., as is Oracle, Apple, Hewlett Packard, Gateway, Dell, Microsoft.

You know, I bet that if the government stopped taxing the daylights out of successful people so they could provide handouts for people who don’t want to work, the U.S. might be able to attract even more motivated, smart people who can come up with innovative new products and services. That way, if you don’t have an iPhone, a Kindle, or a Tesla Roadster, you might be able to find a job so you could get them.

belcatar,

Thank you for that - i don’t think that there’s anyone here who lives that far from the services that they pay for (small island + lots of people). We do however have some of the same problems as you - people who won’t work and people like myself paying for them - it’s certainly not a US phoenomenon and it is really irritating for me as well. However, I don’t believe that the National Health Service (NHS) has any effect on this one way or another, because we have got past the stage of thinking of it as a benefit in the way that you would imagine any more than we think of the police, fire etc… It’s just something that has ‘always’ been there (well since the 60’s anyway)- so we don’t have that mental connection between money and healthcare. To be honest I never thought about it at all until I moved to Texas where I had an opportunity to objectively compare both systems. There was much that I liked about America - but I have to say - if I could change one thing it would still be your health service and I would do it exactly for hard working people like you who deserve more. Doesn’t your lack of Healthcare cover bother you? It would scare the cr*p out of me that’s for sure.
Anyway - I hope that you stay well and thank you for your response.

Last one. I promise.

Fact is, America makes and does nothing that the rest of the world doesn’t make or do better.

Well, let me beg to differ. Last time I checked, the most successful company on the planet was an American one. They do discount retail better than anyone else. When they sneeze, everyone else in retail catches a cold. I’m probably the only person who lives close to one of their stores, and doesn’t shop in it. That place is Wal-Mart.

Oh, yeah and I learned that from a Google search. Google is also in California. Near eBay, I think.

Why don’t you shop at Walmart?

American Cars - these are about 15 years behind European and Japanese Cars - you don’t know this of course, because you are so free that you are not allowed to make this judgement.

Please tell me then how I’ve come to be driving a Nissan Quest.  (And before that, a Nissan Sentra.  And before that, a Nissan Pulsar.) I am QUITE allowed to make any judgment on any car, and I CHOSE the Nissans. The gov’t had no impact on either my decision or the purchase.

Yes they do - the import duty that your Gov’t charge Nissan makes their cars artificially expensive. It is only this ‘adjustment’ that stops Japanese cars from flooding your market. You yourself have realised that they are a superior product - if they were allowed to compete evenly with US car producers, what do you think the result would be?

mathius, I’m afraid I don’t understand—are you saying that protective tariffs are unique to the U.S.?  That, say, the U.K. doesn’t artificially inflate prices of goods or services?

You yourself have realised that they are a superior product

I think this is at odds with your earlier statement “...you are not allowed to make this judgement.” How can I realize something is superior if I’m not even free enough to make a judgment?  Shouldn’t I have just robotically chosen an American car?  How could I have chosen a Japanese car if I’m too ignorant to have researched non-American cars? 

Most importantly, how could I have afforded this artificially expensive car?!?  Dammit, I told my wife that this cheaper-but-superior car was a good deal!! }:>

Toyota, the Japanese automaker, said yesterday that it would invest $1.3 billion to build its eighth North American assembly plant in Blue Springs, Miss., just outside Tupelo in northeastern Mississippi. The plant will build the Toyota Highlander, a crossover vehicle, and will employ 2,000 workers, the company said. Production is expected to begin in 2010, and reach 150,000 vehicles each year. The 1,700-acre site was promoted vigorously by the state, which wound up in a competition with Arkansas and Tennessee for the factory.

Toyota must be giving the government fits, building their cars in Mississippi. How dare they employ American workers just to avoid those nasty import duties! Isn’t Toyota a Japanese automaker? It’s strange that a foreign company could have factories in such a rigidly controlled economy like the U.S.

I drive one of those Toyotas too. Somehow, I managed to fork over that import duty.

But enough about our Gestapo-controlled economy. Let’s talk about health care. I live in rural Maine, and for some reason, doctors don’t want to live in an area with such a low population, hard winters, and high taxes. So, there aren’t very many doctors up here. Even if I had the best medical coverage money could buy, I’d still have to drive two hours down to Bangor to see a doctor. As it is, I have to drive two hours up to Caribou to see a dentist.

Universal coverage does not mean universal access.

And the reason I don’t shop at Wal-Mart is because I was treated badly in a Wal-Mart once, and so I decided I wouldn’t shop there anymore. That was in 1999.

Belcatar/Bismark

RE Import of Cars - There are no Import Taxes within the EU - it’s a Free Market.

Wal-Mart: You are a man after my own heart - I got an unjust parking ticket in a town about 20 miles from my house that I used to visit and shop in regularly - I haven’t been back since (18 years and counting)

I am off on vacation now for the next 3 weeks so please do not think that I am ignoring you if you chose to respond.

Belcatar/Bismark - it has been an absolute pleasure

Rann Aridorn - You make the the most compelling argument I have ever seen for abortion

Yes, but unfortunately your mother didn’t listen to me.

Check out what we pay for internal flights in Europe (ryanair.com, easyjet.com, jet2.com)and compare them with what you pay. All of these companies want to come over and set up in the US, but can’t because if they did, in a free market, they would close down the US domestic airlines in about 6 weeks.

Of course, all of the airlines you mention received and are now fighting to maintain the massive subsidies that governments in Europe have been giving them.  In other words, “free market” with “government subsidies” is an oxymoron.

Also - recently on-line gambling was banned in the US - could this have been because gambling is wrong? No - of course not - you have Las Vegas after all, and Reno. Or could it possibly have been because the big players in Internet Gambling sites are all European owned? What do you reckon?? And how much debate was there in the American media about this assault on free trade?

The “assault” as you put it, has more to do with gaming laws than it does with actual gaming.  Here in the US, a game that is dependant on programming must have its code reviewed by gaming officials to make sure that the code does not favor the “house” more than allowed by law.  There is a real feeling out there that some sites being outside of the US jurisdiction could (and do) “rig” the games so the site makes more money.  That is the fear, and that is but one of the reasons online gaming is prohibited.  The other would be that illegal cartels were using the sites to bet large amounts of cash on losing propositions, and then laundering the money when it was lost. 

In other words, your premise that the gaming ban is based on a lack of a “free market” is flawed.

Just a point on the online gaming argument in a free society surely its your choice to play the games or not and not be told what you can and cannot spend your money on.  If after being given the facts you still choose to play the game its your risk that the game might be fixed. 

Incidently due to the heavy competition in the gaming industry it would be counter productive for them to be fixing the game as people would just move their money elsewhere (The beauty of a free market aye).

All the games I have played online I have enjoyed and usually lost but hey I’m probably just a bad poker player.

I feel that most of the US’s problem with online gaming lies in two areas.  Firstly the god botherers that insist that ‘Jesus wouldn’t have played cards like that he’d have probably played snap or something,’ and secondly with the fact that your prohibative gambling laws make it difficult to set up poker sites based in the US and it is easier to base them in Europe etc.

Free market economy but only for the benefit of the land of the free apparently.

Sorry to go on but in reference to the initial article, the definition of irony must be an American based website pointing out that there are fat people in England and the UK getting a US company involved to help deal with them.

All I can say is HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA

dush1, for once I agree with you—in a free market economy we should be able to choose to gamble or not.  As for your analysis, I think you’re off a bit: it’s not just right-wing “god-botherers” who cause problems, but left-wing “I want a part of that action” politicians.

mathius
American Cars - these are about 15 years behind European and Japanese Cars - you don’t know this of course, because you are so free that you are not allowed to make this judgement.

I’ve owned two Honda motorcycles and one Harley.  Used the Harley cost more than the two Honda’s combined.  So there goes your “artificially inflated” price theory.  I’ve also owned a Nissan King Cab 4X4 (it was cheaper than the Ford, Dodge and GM equivilent) and two Subarus.  But I wouldn’t know that they’re better vehicles or better values in Amerikkka because our guvment puts unfair tariffs on them to discourage me from making that judgement.  Right…

And Mathius is really on vacation…

If after being given the facts you still choose to play the game its your risk that the game might be fixed.

This seems contradictory to me.  How can “knowing all the facts” not include whether the game is fixed or rigged?

Incidently due to the heavy competition in the gaming industry it would be counter productive for them to be fixing the game as people would just move their money elsewhere (The beauty of a free market aye).

There are a couple of assumptions here that may not be accurate.  First, if rigging the game was so counterproductive, why does every state that allows gambling have some sort of regulatory law enforcement making sure the game stays “legal” and not rigged?  If your premise is correct, there would be no need for law enforcement that deals strictly with the gambling industry as they would all be above board.

Secondly, assume for a moment that one of the rigs in a game would be having an employee see all the cards that are dealt.  They can tell when you are bluffing, when they have the best hand etc.  While we sit here and think that would never fly because the person would be winning all the hands, the fact of the matter is that even winning a hand one percent more often than someone would have is results in huge profits that would not be there otherwise.  Do you really think that you can spot a “person” that wins 1% more often than they should?  In other words, you are making the assumption that you would know that you are getting suckered.

You said that you probably were a bad poker player.  How do you know that the other guy who is winning 1% more often than they should is not a really good poker player? 

The fact of the matter is that online gaming sites that are outside of the US are un-regulated and ripe for illegal activity and theft. 

While I understand that sentiment that adults should be able to make decisions based on knowing the facts, in this case, we don’t know the facts.  No one has checked the sites and how they are run.  You aren’t making an informed decision because you don’t have all the information.

I agree that it is not the government’s job to tell us how to run our lives and to make choices for us that we can make.  However, I also think that part of the government’s job is to help protect its citizens from harm including theft and other illegal activities.