Yes, Lee… an additional tax for those who come into our nation to add more funds to the strained NHS. It’s not an unfair tax, and no socialist would see it as such. You see, socialised healthcare is only available to everyone, because everyone pays into it. The additional numbers of immigrants in the UK are pushing the resources of the NHS (not through sponging from our system, but through a shift in the ratio of patients:carers - we need more resources within the NHS to deal with more patients, so we need more cash to pay for the resources). By raising the amount that immigrants pay as a part of the visa application, it makes the idea of coming to the UK JUST to use the NHS less apeealing (especially when you have France next door, who have a much better health system than ours - oh, also socialised!)

The thing is, with socialised healthcare, everyone pays their share. The more you earn, the more you can afford, so the more you pay. It’s not a significant amount (much less than we’d have to pay under a privatised, or rather corporatised, health insurance system such as that seen in the US), but it offers a very good standard of healthcare for all without the fear that your ‘insurance’ will run out or fail to cover for a specific condition.

I read last year that out of 191 countries monitored, the UK came around 18th for the amount it spent on healthcare (as a percentage of GDP) and that returned us a position of 19th on the league table for quality of service/care. By contrast, the US spent more than anyone else as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, but the US only ranked around 37th (or 39th? can’t remember exactly - I’ve been trying to find the document… think it was a WHO report). This doesn’t bode well for corporatised healthcare.

Personally I think Ron Paul had some good ideas about how to turn around the US’ healthcare woes - going back to the system you used to have (pre-Nixon). That guy talks a lot of sense, even to me, and I’m what is usually called a humanitarian, or sometimes socialist over here, but I guess in the States I’d be called a ‘commie pinko leftie bastard’ or something heh ;)

It’s not necessarily about how much money you spend on healthcare - it’s how that money is used. Currently in the UK, we spend a hell of a lot more on healthcare than we used to, but a lot of that extra cash gets sucked out of the system by shareholders in the PFI’s that nooLabour (aka Uber-Thatcherite Fascist Pigs who have sold their base up the river) set up to try and privatise the NHS by the back door. Some of it has also gone to raise pay and conditions for the workers (about time) who saw their standards of living decrease dramatically under the last Tory government. It’s complicated…

There’s a lot of animosity in the UK towards the idea of privatising the NHS (a useful resource for some of this back story is here - including evidence of the attempts at privatisation and general feeling over here.

Anyway, as always you seem to reduce this to a Black and White issue of ‘socialised healthcare=bad, corporatised healthcare=good’. However, this isn’t such a simple subject, and socialised healthcare benefits most people in nations (like the UK) where the majority of people earn below the ‘average wage’.

If we were all multi-millionaires we’d probably see things differently and like most people of that financial status be looking for any way possible to reduce our tax bills. Interestingly, tax fraud by the super rich in the UK costs the economy about twice as much as benefits fraud by those on ‘Jobseekers allowance’ - but that’s another issue.

Even grassroots members of the Conservative party over here are avid supporters of the NHS, because they see how good a service they get for the amount they have to pay into the system. Those with more expendable income can always CHOOSE to go private and pay the additional costs that incurs on top of their mandatory National Insurance contributions, and many private health schemes provide their own consultants/doctors but rely on the NHS for the actual infrastructure when it comes to surgery and treatment.

The problem with Moore (and you) on this subject, is that you have these polarised concrete ideas about what socialised healthcare means. To Moore he see this idealised utopia, which isn’t actually the reality on the ground. You yourself see a hellish distopia, which again misses the mark. The true picture is somewhere in between. It’s not perfect, but it does one hell of a good job for how much the average joe has to foot the bill - and from performance figures, it’s much more efficient and low-cost than the current US system.

If the US ever turns around it’s healthcare and comes up with a working private system (for the masses, not the few), then it’ll be something that the UK can look too as a possible future direction to take if the NHS becomes unsustainable, but as things stand now I’d rather keep it as it is and so would the majority of UK residents.

The thing is, with socialised healthcare, everyone pays their share.

That is, of course, a lie, as the very next sentence in your comment proves.

The more you earn, the more you can afford, so the more you pay.

That is NOT paying a fair share.  That is paying for everyone else regardless of how much you use or how fair it is.  That is socialism, plain and simple, and it is abhorrent to a large number of Americans.  We don’t want to be British.  We don’t want to be socialists.  We have a very different set of values and we aren’t interested in becoming more like European subjects.

What we want is a level playing field where everyone gets a fair chance at success, not a government that lowers the bar for what success is, then takes everyone’s money and doles it out so that everyone can achieve the newly defined level.  It’s a basic, fundamental difference between Brits and their American cousins.  You want the government to coddle you.  You are willing to let the government run your life.

Many Americans are not.  Well, some Americans are, to be sure, but it’s my opinion that those Americans are idiots.  :)

I doubt we’ll will never see eye to eye on socialized medicine because of that fundamental difference.  The fact that socialized medicine also fails to provide decent levels of care and bankrupts economies is just a feather in the cap of the anti-socialized medicine argument.

I read last year that out of 191 countries monitored, the UK came around 18th for the amount it spent on healthcare (as a percentage of GDP) and that returned us a position of 19th on the league table for quality of service/care. By contrast, the US spent more than anyone else as a percentage of GDP on healthcare, but the US only ranked around 37th (or 39th? can’t remember exactly - I’ve been trying to find the document… think it was a WHO report). This doesn’t bode well for corporatised healthcare.

I’ll tell you exactly why the US came in 37th.  The criteria used to make the determination placed astonishingly high value on “availability” and far less on “quality.” Thus a country with an inferior healthcare system which is “free” for everyone would rank higher than the US, the country with the world’s best doctors, hospitals, and medical technology, for no other reason than the US government doesn’t treat healthcare like some kind of government freebie.

Anyway, as always you seem to reduce this to a Black and White issue of ‘socialised healthcare=bad, corporatised healthcare=good’. However, this isn’t such a simple subject, and socialised healthcare benefits most people in nations (like the UK) where the majority of people earn below the ‘average wage’.

Yeah, but you’re completely missing the point.  The automobile market is heavily corporatized as well, to the point that the vast majority of cars are made by one of about 6 major auto corporations.  However, what has this resulted in?  Cars of every type of quality and price, affordable by damn near anyone of any income level.  And those companies which best anticipate the needs and desires of consumers, like Toyota and Honda, are able to virtually destroy those big corporations who did not, such as Ford and General Motors, both of whom are posting record losses.

Given the long history of the success of market-based systems versus decisions made by governmental fiat, I’ll take the market.

Oh, and do you know that enormous healthcare spending bill you previously mentioned?  It should be known that a full 50% of that bill is in the form of America’s “free” healthcare spending for the poor and elderly.

I think the solution is relatively simple.  Just like with car insurance, we make health insurance mandatory.  We stop spending money on Medicaid, and re-route that money to people in the form of means-tested vouchers which can be used to purchase insurance policies.  This way market forces keep costs low and quality high through competition, and everyone has health insurance coverage.

Insurance doesn’t equal access. I have really good dental insurance through my wife’s job, and we can’t find a dentist. No dentists in this area are taking new patients. We’ll probably have to drive two hours down to Bangor in order to find a dentist.

It’s the same for doctors up here. Most people see NP’s because there are no doctors. Even if I had some great health plan, I’d receive the same level of care (none) that I do now. Forcing me to pay for insurance isn’t going to insure that I have access to good medical care.

I’m willing to accept the lack of doctors because I like living up here, but I just wanted to throw that out there to add to the debate.

One of the solutions that I think can take pressure off the industry in the US are clinics.  CVS just opened up these “Minute Clinics” all over our area.  They do flu shots, basic medical treatment, etc.  Cheap and fast.  No need to find or tie up a doctor when a PA or an RA can check you for strep or give you a flu shot.

And it’s a private, for-profit company.  Imagine that!  For-profit motivation ends up serving the community well.  Who’d a’thunk it.

One of the solutions that I think can take pressure off the industry in the US are clinics.  CVS just opened up these “Minute Clinics” all over our area.  They do flu shots, basic medical treatment, etc.  Cheap and fast.  No need to find or tie up a doctor when a PA or an RA can check you for strep or give you a flu shot.

And they’re not even the first. Apparently, CVS is just mimicking the undisputed king of all retail, Wal-Mart, who has already started opening “retail” clinics.
Now, love Wal-Mart or hate them, there’s one thing you simply cannot deny; if they decide to invest in something, there must be a demand for it.

Hang on Jim. How come I’m getting this US V Britain attitude? We never go around telling you guys that our health care is better/more efficient/fair or whatever. Our health care is just different. All that b*llshit is being spread by a big fat f*cking lying/misleading AMERICAN. We have had the NHS since 1948 and that has been the case with all our political parties be they conservative or Labour, so stop billing this is a ‘socialist’ thing. Yes it was a Labour government who implemented it but every conservative government since has kept it firmly in place which is a testament to its success. It’s as if you’re billing us as a bunch of left wing socialist idiots, we’re not. You should remember that it was a LABOUR government that backed the US and is fighting alongside you in this war on terror, and more so than ANY other nation on this planet.

One of the reasons why our health care is being haemorrhaged day in day out of it’s resources is the illegal immigrants/asylum seekers that are pouring into the country to take advantage of it and/or housing. I read a report that in the North of England in 1980 just 6 foreign babies were born. Last year it was over 26,000 and its getting bigger every day. THAT is the reason why our NHS is struggling.

How come I’m getting this US V Britain attitude? We never go around telling you guys that our health care is better/more efficient/fair or whatever. Our health care is just different. All that b*llshit is being spread by a big fat f*cking lying/misleading AMERICAN.

You’re getting it because that’s what you want to get.  As you said all that bullshit about your health care being better is spread by Americans trying to force us into your system by claiming its better.  So if you get upset by the countering those claims by pointing out the crappy aspects of your healthcare, that’s your problem.

We have had the NHS since 1948 and that has been the case with all our political parties be they conservative or Labour, so stop billing this is a ‘socialist’ thing.

Just because all your political parties are in favor of it doesn’t mean its not socialist.  It just means all your political parties are in favor of a socialist program.

The more you earn, the more you can afford, so the more you pay.
That is NOT paying a fair share.  That is paying for everyone else regardless of how much you use or how fair it is.

And there it is, right there - why Brits are happy with the NHS (in principle, anyway) and the US will never be. The definition of fair. Now this isn’t me arguing its better, just trying to explain the reasoning here - just so you don’t run screaming for the non socialist hills…

The concept is that paying a percentage of your money to the greater good is fairer than paying a flat rate. £100 a month is a lot to someone on £15k, and probably what a millionaire pays in unwatched DVD’s.

Now all that the argument is about is that the Jim is arguing that that system isn’t fair from the rich peoples point of view, and we’re arguing from the poor peoples point of view. It’s not going to be fair - never is - taxation is never going to be fair. The question is how to pay for a service that we voted be available to every single person in the UK no matter how rich/poor/clever/stupid/irresponsible they are. Its part of the contract of being a british citizen. You guys don’t have that, and its fine. Depending on what criteria you look at (for example availability) ours is better (for sake of argument) on others yours is. The issue is to work out what your priorities are in the issue of healthcare - and thats essentially what everyone is talking about.

So if you get upset by the countering those claims by pointing out the crappy aspects of your healthcare, that’s your problem.
Who said it was a problem? No problem for me...just an observation. And as you keep pointing out that our healthcare is ‘’crappy’’ then in all honesty what do you think yours is? A utopia? I hardly think so…

We have some of the best and well equipped hospitals in the world FACT with some of the best health care specialists. The fact that if you ever visit our country with no medical insurance and were unfortunate to be hit by a bus or waterver and needing life saving surgery by these professionals, you’d get it. So if you think thats ‘’crappy’’ healthcare thats’s YOUR problem (or observation.

Let me give you a an example. A friend of mine’s mother (who is from New York) came over here for a Xmas shopping trip Xmas just gone. She fell and broke her hip. She was operated on by a top consultant and spent the next 6 weeks here. She couldn’t stop praising the facilities and staff who took exceptional care of her. Now if you want I’ll ask if I can send you her email and you can ask her what she thinks of our ‘crappy’’ healthcare.
When she returned to the US her doctors gave her a medical and inspected the work. They contacted the surgeon over here and congratulated him on his work. So unless you’ve actually BEEN here and experienced first hand for yourself, you are by default ignorant and do not know what you are talking about. Like I said earlier i’m not saying its ‘better’ than yours, it just is what it is.

Who said it was a problem? No problem for me...just an observation. And as you keep pointing out that our healthcare is ‘’crappy’’ then in all honesty what do you think yours is? A utopia? I hardly think so…

If its not a problem for you why the need to point it out? 

Did I say your healthcare is crappy?  Are you able to read?  I only said “crappy aspects” not that the entire system is crappy.  I bet there are aspects of US healthcare you would find to be lacking and think we could improve on.  You might even refer to those aspects as being pretty crappy.  Even after you have attempted to claim that your healthcare is not better than ours so maybe you can figure out that I was not slamming your entire socialist program.

We have some of the best and well equipped hospitals in the world FACT with some of the best health care specialists. The fact that if you ever visit our country with no medical insurance and were unfortunate to be hit by a bus or waterver and needing life saving surgery by these professionals, you’d get it.

Same as in America.  Of course, in America, you won’t be subject to an ambulance holding pattern. Oops, did I just do that?  I think I did.

See that would a crappy aspect.  Now the next time some shit head socialist loving american brings up your NHS about how great and perfect and better your system is than in america I can use that to demonstrate that your system has problems as well so its niether great nor perfect.  And as for you getting your knickers up in a bunch?  That’s because you actually do believe your system is better than America’s and only make the denial as a token effort.

See that would a crappy aspect.  Now the next time some shit head socialist loving american brings up your NHS about how great and perfect and better your system is than in america I can use that to demonstrate that your system has problems as well so its niether great nor perfect.  And as for you getting your knickers up in a bunch?  That’s because you actually do believe your system is better than America’s and only make the denial as a token effort.

Man you seriously need to get over yourself. You judge our ENTIRE healthcare system on a few newsparer reports? What kind of horse shit is that. Why don’t I just trawl through the internet and and find a few of your medical f*ck up?
Well becuase thats not fair at all and I wouldnt do it. Thats the kind of thing YOUR fat socialist bastard does, only a lot better than you…

You judge our ENTIRE healthcare system on a few newsparer reports?

No I don’t.  How about you actually read what is actually written.

Let’s try this.  Do you think your socialist healthcare system is perfect?  Works absolutely wonderfully with no flaws whatsoever.  Its the perfect working government machine operating exactly as it should, with no problems.

Or can you actually acknowledge that there are flaws in it?

Why don’t I just trawl through the internet and and find a few of your medical f*ck up?

Well when someone comes along and starts advocating that you scrap your socialist healthcare system and adopt the american method, then you can go right ahead bring up medical fuck ups in the US to demonstrate that our system is not better than yours. 

But of course you don’t need to do that because you already believe yours is superior to America, otherwise you wouldn’t throw such a fit about pointing out flaws in it.  Your denial was a token effort that you didn’t really believe.

Let’s try this.  Do you think your socialist healthcare system is perfect?  Works absolutely wonderfully with no flaws whatsoever.  Its the perfect working government machine operating exactly as it should, with no problems.

Or can you actually acknowledge that there are flaws in it?

When I actually said in my very first post…

We never go around telling you guys that our health care is better/more efficient/fair or whatever. Our health care is just different.[b]...did you even read this?

Well when someone comes along and starts advocating that you scrap your socialist healthcare system and adopt the american method, then you can go right ahead bring up medical fuck ups in the US to demonstrate that our system is not better than yours

No, when someone has absolutely NO knowledge of our medical system (and probably hasn’t even been to England and experienced if first hand)...trawls through the internet for isolated newspaper reports, takes them as gospel and then pastes them on here, and then talks complete crap...then I can come on here and talk about your medical fuck ups, except that I wont cause…I don’t give a fuck. .

If you’ve got a problem (which you clearly have) about people being disrespectful about your medical system, then take it to Michael Moore. He’s the one that’s saying our system is better not me. Either that or acknowledge that you have got SOME problems and shut the fuck up.

And finally…
That’s because you actually do believe your system is better than America’s and only make the denial as a token effort.

When have I EVER said that? That’s in your twisted bitter imagination. You don’t seem to be able to discuss my comments in an intelligent manor so you paraphrase them to fit your argument? Do you realise how DUMB that makes you look?
Scroll up, check out my comments. Did I ever say that? No. No I didn’t.

When I actually said in my very first post…

We never go around telling you guys that our health care is better/more efficient/fair or whatever. Our health care is just different....did you even read this?

Yes I did.  So why did you avoid my question?  Do you believe your socialist system is better than America’s system yes or no?  Do you admit that there are problems with your healthcare system?  Why are you so afraid to answer?  Is it because what you really believe isn’t the bullshit lie you’re telling.

Can you actually read anything I’ve posted?

If you’ve got a problem (which you clearly have) about people being disrespectful about your medical system, then take it to Michael Moore.

See what Michael Moore does is not just being “disrespectful” to our medical system.  He points to systems like yours and goes “we should do just like them they’re perfect!” Its not just about countering the lies of what Moore says about the American medical system.  Its also about countering the lies to what he claims is the solution.

He’s the one that’s saying our system is better not me.

And so we can go ahead and point out that your system isn’t better.  Notice that I do not claim your little socialist system is worse, just not better.  Why do you get your panties all up in a bunch when this happens?  Could it be because you actually do think your system is better than America’s and you get upset when its not recognized as superior?

Either that or acknowledge that you have got SOME problems and shut the fuck up.

Take your own advice you whiney little twit.  Your system has problems too.  That’s the entire point.  The solution to America’s healthcare problems is not to adopt your system and inherit the problems yours have. You know those same problems you seem to have such a problem admitting exist.  Notice how I acknowledge that America’s healthcare system does have problems.  See how easy that was.  And so…

When have I EVER said that? That’s in your twisted bitter imagination. You don’t seem to be able to discuss my comments in an intelligent manor so you paraphrase them to fit your argument? Do you realise how DUMB that makes you look?
Scroll up, check out my comments. Did I ever say that? No. No I didn’t.

You have never said it.  However I did not claim you have said you said.  I said you believe it.  And the fact that you get so upset when we point out problems that exist in your system as a counter to the people who claim you have the perfect system, your inability to actually say “yes there are problems with the UK’s system” is evidence that you do believe what I claim.  And your denial of it is a token effort to not have your comments dismissed out of hand.