http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

That link is all I need to know about how great the Free Healthcare in Cuba really is.

I wonder how the next troll is going to spin this?

I wonder how the next troll is going to spin this?

With bias born of ignorance.

This is the link Hagis posted:

The Real Cuba

Silly Moore. Doesn’t he know that Castro is so over? Chavez is the new Communist thug hotness!

sethery - buzz - w0rf - check yo emailses, yo.

It’s very probable that Moore’s cameras in Cuba gave him special treatment instead of what Cubans receive, and maybe indeed Cuba’s health system isn’t as spectacular as “Sicko” makes us believe.  But personally I have to ask, why all the fascination with Cuba and Moore’s trip to Cuba?

I watched a lot of Fox News and Glen Beck bashing Sicko but always in the same way: “How dare he go to Cuba, look how he loves Castro, Cuba this, Cuba that, etc. etc.”.  And all the while the issue of health care in America is avoided, and that’s what “Sicko” is about.

Is there anyone who does not want free universal health care in this country?  And if so, why not?

nyctuber, have you seen the film?

Hazo - read the last two weeks worth of posts and the comments before you continue to post.  Your question has been asked and answered dozens of times in just the last week alone.

Ah, finally the trolls come out from under the bridge.

“I’m not trumpeting Castro or his regime. I just want to say to fellow Americans, “C’mon, we’re the United States! If they can [provide care for all] we can do it”

If Moore were alive in the 1930’s....“I’m not trumpeting Stalin or his regime. I just want to say to fellow Americans, “C’mon, we’re the United States! If they can [provide care for all] we can do it”

Badmouth Michael Moore or hit the road. Is that about right?

No not at all.

What poor souls? The ones dieing under Castro?

Castro’s government is trumpeting Moore, shouldn’t he be ashamed?

Posted by Hazo on 06/17 at 08:07 PM (Link to this comment)

“It’s very probable that Moore’s cameras in Cuba gave him special treatment instead of what Cubans receive, and maybe indeed Cuba’s health system isn’t as spectacular as “Sicko” makes us believe.  But personally I have to ask, why all the fascination with Cuba and Moore’s trip to Cuba?”

Yeah… Costa Rica has public healthcare… why not go to Costa Rica?

Anyway, Moore always carries water for lefty dictators…

Posted by Hazo on 06/17 at 08:07 PM (Link to this comment)

“Is there anyone who does not want free universal health care in this country?  And if so, why not?”

Me. Nothing is free. The US system is top notch. The problem is some people have trouble affording it. I’d rather deal with that than ruining the system by socializing it.

Bottom line, I’d rather have a future health problem here than anywhere else… and thanks to my insurance, if another country happened to offer better care for a specific issue I had, I could probably go there to get it and have the insurance company pay for it…

nyctuber - what exactly did Moore say about Castro, and what was his tone - and furthermore what was the implication about his presentation of Castro as a human being?

Also, as a sidebar - what the hell is your problem?  We haven’t addressed every god-damned moment of a film that isn’t even released yet and this somehow means we can’t discuss one of the most blatantly disgusting moments in the film?

Do you know what it means to to Cubans and Cuban-Americans be a collaborator with Castro?  Stick around over the next few weeks...you will.

That having been said, if you think for one second that this is the first and last discussion about any of the film’s other content, then you are a total moore-on and deserve any derision you may receive.

If, however, you want to drop the fucking superiority complex and *TALK* to us like people, then we can talk.

That is one of the few things Castro shouldn’t be ashamed of.

You actually believe that what is in the movie is the way poor Cubans are treated?

Jesus Christ.  I mean...wow.  That just blows my mind.

I wasn’t talking about Castro, I was talking about Moore, shouldn’t he be ashamed?

What Michael Moore says:

“In an interview with Time Magazine, Moore states “I’m not trumpeting Castro or his regime. I just want to say to fellow Americans, “C’mon, we’re the United States! If they can [provide care for all] we can do it”

What Castro says:

“There’s no doubt that a documentary by someone of Michael Moore’s stature will help the world see the deeply humane principles of Cuban society.”

Why doesn’t Moore include pictures of the hostpitals from The Real Cuba site and put them in Sicko? Oh wait, that doesn’t fit his pro-socialist agenda now does it?

He reminds me of the US politicians who went to Nazi Germany and came back and told us it was a wonderful place, and Hitler wasn’t that bad of a guy after all.

nyc, I’m calling you out.  I don’t believe you saw the film at all.  I asked you for specifics.  If you can’t give them, just admit you didn’t see it.

And for someone who claims not to be here to flaunt some sense of superiority, you sure are acting like a dick in someone else’s living room.  How about you talk TO us instead of yelling AT us?  Maybe a little less preaching and a little more, you know, discussing?  Maybe you could be as open to OUR ideas as you want us to be to yours?

I won’t hold my breath.  You aren’t the first person to come here and act like this.  You’re about the five thousandth.

Posted by sl0re on 06/18 at 12:53 AM (Link to this comment)

“Me. Nothing is free. The US system is top notch. The problem is some people have trouble affording it. I’d rather deal with that than ruining the system by socializing it.”

I don’t dispute for a minute that the US health care FACILITIES are top notch.  But the fact that some people have trouble affording it makes the SYSTEM broken.  And even those who can afford it are sometimes shafted, which shows the system isn’t as good as it could be.

I’m not saying “let’s be like the cuba Moore wants us to think exists”.  I’m saying, as many countries show, ‘free’ universal health care is possible with top-notch facilities.  Who wouldn’t want that?  Forget labeling it “socialized medicine”.  It’s the concept of free universal health care we’re dealing with.  It’s clearly possible, it’s being done. Why not here.

The only place on Earth these people could get help was in Cuba

That’s just RIDICULOUS.  I can’t possibly take you seriously if you really believe that.

Not to mention, there is no earthly way to prove or disprove it.  We are not allowed by law to validate ANYTHING that Moore or those people claim in the film due to HIPAA.  So you can claim that doctors told them that only seventy-three million dollars in gold Krugerrands would cure them, and I could claim that they all lied about everything, and neither of us can prove a fucking thing.

Making an outrageous claim like “The only place on Earth these people could get help was in Cuba” doesn’t further the debate about health care.  It just makes you look like a frigging moonbat.

Just a little baffled why so much animosity toward Michael Moore.

I’m not sure why you care.  Do you think this is all any of us do?  We sit around all day and do nothing but talk about Moore?  We do other things, write other places, have wives and children and jobs and hobbies and I, for one, played the living hell out of some Rainbow Six Vegas earlier today.  So we spend a few minutes a day thinking about and talking about Moore and the issues he puts in his films.

Isn’t that what Moore wants?  Why do you think he gave me money for this site?  He wants us here, talking about this stuff.

The bigger question is why do you want us to stop when Moore doesn’t?

How does the US Healthcare system compare to Nazi Germany? Nazi Germany: Jew, gay, inttelctual, handicapped, gypsy.... into the gas chambers. U.S.A.: Sick, had a ‘yeast infection’ need an operation we don’t feel like paying for… into the oven. Perhaps an overdramatization, but it is the point and people ARE dying. I’m wrong?

I DID NOT COMPARE THE US HEALTHCARE SYSTEM TO NAZI GERMANY!

The point I was trying to make was if you know anything at all about history, there were many people in our government who bought into early Nazi propaganda, and believed Hitler wasn’t that bad. You said Michael had to send sick people to a dictatorship, well Hitler was a dictator right, what makes him any different than Castro?

You seem to have an animosity towards Bill O’Rielly and Rush Limbaugh, yet you haven’t said anything to back up what you think is bullshit about what they say.

But if someone doesn’t drink the kool-aid of Michael Moore, you are outraged.

I will bet you $100 that every one of those people had the diseases outlined and their stories are 100% true.

What in the Blue fuck does that mean?

“I’m not trumpeting Castro or his regime. I just want to say to fellow Americans, “C’mon, we’re the United States! If they can [provide care for all] we can do it” .

Sounds like the lieing sack of shit Moore is trumpeting them to me!

I’m not sure what you think Michael Moore should stop

Lying, stretching the truth, lying by omission, using juxstaposition editing tricks to create moments that never existed and basically being deceitful, in his work and in the way he deals with those he uses in his films.

I have NEVER wanted him to stop making movies.  I just hope that someday he’ll start making honest documentaries instead of deceitful polemics that do more damage than good for the causes he champions.

his documentaries are truthful and neccesary in my book.

How do you justify his lying about interviewing Roger Smith?  Also, please answer my question about the movie.  I asked you, you read it (you quoted other lines in the same post) and you’ve had PLENTY of time to answer.

Or did you lie about seeing Sicko?

It means that there are no facts here.

Now you’re just being a liar.  The original post has facts in it.  You’ve decided to ignore them and try to change the subject to what YOU want to talk about.

Silly rabbit.  Tricks are for kids.  This is a post about Moore’s glorification of Castro as a human being, and Castro’s trumpeting that fact across the globe.

Care to join in this discussion or not?  You’ll need to have actually seen Sicko in order to participate, as understanding this particular issue requires that you know precisely how Moore presented NOT Cuban Health care, but Castro himself.

“In an interview with Time Magazine, Moore states “I’m not trumpeting Castro or his regime. I just want to say to fellow Americans, “C’mon, we’re the United States! If they can [provide care for all] we can do it”

You can repost that until the fucking cows come home.  DID YOU SEE THE SCENE IN SICKO OR NOT??  It puts the lie to Moore’s claim that he wasn’t trumpeting castro.  He absolutely 100% did.

Did you see it?  And if so, what did it contain?  You get one more chance to answer me.  I will NOT have this debate with someone who lies straight to my face about it and then tries to tell me how to feel, think and write about something they never saw.

Lying, stretching the truth, lying by omission, using juxstaposition editing tricks to create moments that never existed and basically being deceitful, in his work and in the way he deals with those he uses in his films.

No remember Jim, according to nyctuber, Moore can be “sarcastic” with what he says and does, as long as it helps the common good. So in effect its not lieing or stretching the truth.

One last thing, and this goes for everyone:

Every single time I see Bill O’Reilly

I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT BILL O’REILLY.  I don’t watch him because he’s an asshole I don’t even watch Fox News unless it’s a Youtube clip that one of my favorite bloggers posts.  For that matter I don’t watch ANY cable or network television news.  It’s all chock full of assholes spreading opinion like it’s hard news, and the hard news is radically biased to both left and right extremes.

STOP BRINGING UP FOX NEWS HOSTS.  We’re not sucking at the Fox News teat.  For the love of FUCK, stop arguing like you are on Democratic Underground talking about “rethuglicans.” If you (the royal you, although this definitely goes double for nyctuber) cannot talk to us and debate with us like regular people, then get the hell off my site.

My g/f who is a liberal has this quote about Dems and Repubs. ‘Republicans are in favor of fair processes, Democrats are in favor of fair outcomes.’

Your girlfriend has it mixed up a bit—Democrats are in favor of equal outcomes.

I think you need to stop searching for minutia when it comes to Moore and stop trying to pick apart solid documentaries which do a hell of alot of good.

So lying in the service of “doing good” is ok with you.  Got it.  Moore lies about Roger Smith - you’re OK with that.  You lie about seeing the Castro segment, and you’re ok with that too.

I know you lied about seeing the film because you have NO IDEA what Moore said about Castro in the movie.  That;s why you keep posting the quote.  Too bad you’re kind of slow - you could have watched the movie at Say Anything in the time it took you to prove you’re a liar, then I would have looked really stupid.

Do you have any concept of what it means to be honest and truthful?

You know what?  I don’t even care.  I’m so done with you.  The fact that you came in here to lecture ME about something you didn’t see, then lied about seeing it...yeah, we need you around here like we need a MRSA infection in a Cuban hospital.

Michael Moore is not in love with Castro.

Then why would he send people to get healthcare from Castro, which in turn the Castro Administration is now using for propaganda? It just makes Castro more ligit in the eyes of many leftist. It just confirms many prominent people in this countries support for the dictator.

Moore just points out, Castro is a monster, but America is much worse. BULLSHIT!

but the HMO’s in the US are free to KILL PEOPLE.  In that light, Castro is perhaps not as much of a demon

For the record: This is what is known as moral equivalence.  It’s BULLSHIT.  It doesn’t fucking matter what Kaiser and Nixon cooked up.  It doesn’t fucking matter what ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD HAS EVER DONE IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY.

As a stand-alone entity, Castro is an evil, horrible human being that tortures and kills his underclass, dissenters, artists that don’t worship the state, and most of all gays.  IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT US HMOS do or don’t do.  Collaborating with Castro - the ONLY way to get into the fancy hospital - is a despicable act regardless of anything else.

Fidel Castro is evil.  Period.  End of sentence.

Collaborating with Castro’s government like this stands alone and it’s disgusting, and we plan to show the world why over the next few weeks.

My g/f who is a liberal has this quote about Dems and Repubs. ‘Republicans are in favor of fair processes, Democrats are in favor of fair outcomes.

Don’t fair processes lead to a fair outcomes? Scratches head..

Don’t fair processes lead to a fair outcomes?

Depends I suppose on your worldview.  I think that people who lean right - and that means a lot more than just Republican - generally think that a level paying field is enough.  You shouldn’t be guaranteed success - just the opportunity for success.  Meanwhile modern leftist doctrine has been turned into a “everyone gets the exact same regardless of how hard they worked for it.” Which, of course is just ridiculously unfair to those who DID the work that earned whatever it is we’re splitting up.

I think that fundamental difference is why we’re so polarized as a nation.  Democrats and the left didn’t used to be this way, and Republicans and the right didn’t used to be so reactionary.  People like Moore have poisoned the well of public discourse though.  He’s helped to make it an “us versus them” society instead of a “we’re in this thing together, but let’s debate how we are gonna accomplish this goal” society.

I’m at the point that I don’t want to live in the world that our current Democratic leadership wants to create, and I don’t trust the Republicans as far as I can throw ‘em.  I don’t know what the hell happened.  Fairness is dead.  Everyone either wants to keep all the pie or give it all away.

No one wants to make MORE pie so we can all get a slice.

I’m rambling.  Back to the topic of Castro.  :)

his documentaries are truthful

That was the funniest statement that idiot made.  If his documentaries are truthful, why did he have to edit and distort things, like making an editorial look like a headline, chopping up a speech by heston, claiming that army recruiters went from the rich mall to the poor mall when they couldn’t get any recruits, but it was actually the complete reverse, and implying that the KKK and NRA had a connected joined history.

I think if moore claimed goat shit chocolate, that guy would pick it up and go “MMMMM this is the best chocolate I’ve ever had!”

JimK, I didn’t get your e-mail.  All my profile settings look good, so I don’t know what happened.  Can you PM your message to me?

Nor did I get your Email.  I got Sethery’s though.

nyctuber, you make one fatal flaw in your analysis.  That is you assume that all Cubans would get the same treatment the Americans got.  That is one huge assumption . . . it’s also a fallacy.

And that makes Moore’s whole point pointless.  What Moore proved was that Cuba will eagerly accept any form of propaganda that enhances their image.

buzz - shoot me an email so I have a working address…

Posted by Hazo on 06/17 at 09:18 PM (Link to this comment)

“I don’t dispute for a minute that the US health care FACILITIES are top notch.  But the fact that some people have trouble affording it makes the SYSTEM broken.  And even those who can afford it are sometimes shafted, which shows the system isn’t as good as it could be.”

Sounds like part of A system is broken and it may not even be the medical system. Seriously, you sort of sound like the White House when it try’s to spin Iraq into being part of ‘the war on terror’ / you want to connect things that are not really very connected [in reality].

Example: If I can’t buy a book (free speech) or a gun (second amendment) is that a constitutional rights issue? No… anyone can see that… So, while its a problem that some people have trouble paying for medical care, its not a medical system problem. Its a general social problem IMO.

Don’t socialize the top notch medical system because some people can not pay (because if you do, the lesson of history is it will probably no longer stay top notch). Rather, figure out how to get care to those who can not pay (without puting them deep in dept). One easy solution is state purchased medical insurance… with a $1k deductible per year… If your poor, paying back $1k sucks, but if you have something serious (cancer, heart problem, et cetera) at least your covered…

But alas, Moore is a socialist. His goal is to make the system public run more so than helping the poor. Just like Cheney’s goal was to invade Iraq… not really so much get Al Queda.

ps
I meant ‘can buy’ as in / because I ‘can’t afford’.

Posted by sl0re on 06/18 at 02:01 PM

So, while its a problem that some people have trouble paying for medical care, its not a medical system problem. Its a general social problem IMO.

Oh I’m with you on that 100%.  I guess what we’re doing now is trying to categorize “the problem” and decide who (what system) is accountable to fix it.

It’s totally understandable that health care is a service, and the current system treats it as a business (which does make sense): the better, more expensive treatment you need/want, the more you have to pay.

I think other westernized countries however see it as a moral issue, where the best care as possible should be given to everyone, regardless of financial status.  “Every human deserves care”.  And while it makes sense that socializing it could cause the services to no longer become top-notch since they (hospitals/doctors/etc.) don’t get ‘funded’ properly, somehow other countries seem to be managing just fine.

Now, the problem is that the current medical system COULD solve the “social problem”.  The proof is in the profits of the health insurance companies.  I’m assuming this is net profit too, after paying employees, bills, etc. but I’ll have to verify that.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it was net profit though...insurance companies make a killing on the basic principle of chance: the chances of people getting into accidents (needing coverage) are slim.
If morality was an issue for health insurance companies...their profits shouldn’t be so high.  They should be giving back to the people in need who pay monthly and not rejecting them for any reason whatsoever.
As for people without coverage and who can’t afford coverage, that becomes a morality issue for the government.  How much do you value the lives of your citizens, rich or poor.

It all boils down to how you believe.  I believe everyone deserves equal health care no matter what.  Socializing the system(s), or keeping the current system(s) could achieve that.  But IF we want everyone to deserve equal health care, then the current system(s) is broken.

btw. by “system(s)” I’m meaning whatever systems contribute to the health care problem.

Also, I don’t really care about Michael Moore’s agenda...he’s trying to get paid just like everybody else.  He does step outside profiting from movies to do rallies and things. Perhaps he genuinely believes in these issues, perhaps not, maybe it’s all for fame.  But whichever it is, as people in this country, this issue concerns everyone.  It’s important to not discuss it based on Michael Moore’s film or what Bill O’Reilly says or whatever.  I notice reading these threads a lot of Moore/anti-Moore bashing is going on and the issues are being left out.  Just focus on the issue.  (I know this is an anti-moore website but it can also serve as a ground for intelligent discussion so people think about what’s really important).

*sigh* I wish you could edit these posts, ‘cause I left out an important bit on the first one.  I talked about how the current medical system could solve the ‘social problem’ sl0re was talking about.
I suggested, if the govt. and health ins. companies WANTED everyone to have equal coverage, they could dip into the profits of the health ins. companies.  Unfair to those paying monthly coverage bills yes...but it’s one of those things.  Those who can afford, provide for those who can’t.  At least the basic right to life and health.  I’m not saying it’s the best suggestion, just a possible one.

I guess what I’m saying is: there’s enough money going around to care for everyone :p.

...insurance companies make a killing on the basic principle of chance: the chances of people getting into accidents (needing coverage) are slim.
If morality was an issue for health insurance companies...their profits shouldn’t be so high.

Hazo,

I have a question.  I often hear how insurance companies are making a killing and their profits are high, but just saying that doesn’t make it so.  How high are the medical insurance industries profits?

Yes yes that’s true I should get some actual figures to show the profits (that’s why i said I have to verify that).  I’ll find some numbers soon.