Doctors Behind Bars
There’s one place in America where people are given 100% medical care provided by the state. Every single medical need they have is provided, free of charge. So I think it’s reasonable that we look at this system to provide some insight into what government-run healthcare in America would look like. What is this system I refer to? Why, the prison system, of course
Now, before we begin, let us not forget that this is a point Moore has made himself a number of times. He made a huge deal after the capture of Saddam that the dictator was getting the type of free medical exam that American citizens couldn’t get, and in Sicko he took 9/11 victims to Gitmo to try to get the same level of care that the terror suspects held there were receiving. So before you Mooreons attack me for an unfair comparison, remember that your lord and savior has been making this point for years.
As many as one in six deaths of California prison inmates last year might have been preventable, according to a study of medical care in 32 state lockups that will be used to help rebuild the troubled system.
One inmate, who reported extreme chest pains in the middle of the night, died of a heart ailment after waiting eight hours to see a doctor.
Another who complained for days of severe abdominal pain died of acute pancreatitis after medical staff did not believe his pleas were credible.
A third died after a two-year delay in diagnosis of his testicular cancer.
And an asthma patient died after failing to receive steroid medication for two days following transfer from a county jail.
The report, released Wednesday by the court-appointed receiver in charge of healthcare for the state’s 173,000 prisoners, revealed a broad pattern of delays in diagnosis, poor inmate access to doctors and tests, botched handling of medical records, and failure of medical staff to recognize and treat dangerous conditions.
Officials said some lapses led to disciplinary actions against doctors and nurses.
There were 426 deaths in 2006, including 43 suicides, and the study examined 381 of them.
Eighteen deaths were found to be preventable, meaning better medical management or a better system of care would have prevented deaths. An additional 48 were found to be “possibly preventable,” meaning better medical management of a system of care might have prevented death.
Of the deaths considered preventable, six were from asthma, which receiver Robert Sillen said he intended to make a priority for reforms.
“The leading cause of [preventable] death being asthma is unconscionable, and it is evidence of systemic problems and problems with individual clinical judgments,” Sillen said in an interview. “Adults in 21st century California should not have asthma as a primary cause of death.”
Now, be honest. This could very easily be a report about the Canadian or British healthcare systems. You could swap “NHS” for “prison” and end up with damn near a verbatim report. If your goal is to provide 100% coverage to everyone then socialized medicine is for you. If your goal is to provide the best quality coverage to the maximum number of people, we can all see just how wonderful the government is at providing 100% healthcare.
The Russian author Fyodor Dostoevsky is alleged to have said, “The way society treats its prisoners characterizes the level of its civilization.” I will leave it to the reader to determine to what degree proponents of 100% government-run healthcare are interested in a just and fair civilization.
Update by Lee: From a commenter at my main blog.
Several years ago I pinched a nerve In my back. Anyone who has had one of these know how painful it is.
Last week I awoke with a pain in my back and chest. Well those are the symptoms of a pinched nerve Id felt them before but never quite like this. As before I laid down and was sure it would remedy itself within a day or two.
Four days later I WALK to the emergency room because the pain is so bad I don’t trust myself to drive. It actually isn’t that far from me I only had to stop five times along the way.
Because I have chest pains in addition to the back pain they take me right away. First they hook me up to a heart monitor and my rate is way high. So then they give me a ekg. This whole time they are strapping all this stuff on me I am trying to explain to them that it is a pinched nerve and I just need something to help me get to sleep. They don’t listen to me. They draw blood, not one vial but 5. Then give me some morphine into the I.V. line that they have put into me. Then I get taken down for chest x-ray’s. The whole time I’m thinking I had a heart attack or something, but it’s been four days surely I would be dead by now.
All this BEFORE I am asked if I have health insurance. Then they ask. Guess what. Yea you guessed it. I have none know what happens next?
The doctor comes in and says I she may have to send me down to their Medical Imaging for a MRI. There might have been some small vien or something in my heart causing the heart problems I’m having. Then they take more blood, and give me more morphine.
That’s right this big greedy corporation after finding out that I have no insurance is going to run more expensive imaging on me, run more expensive tests on me and give me more drugs to ease the pain I’m in even though they know they might not get paid. Now that’s evil.
They are getting ready to transport me down to their MRI and the doctor that has been attending me appears. I am not having a heart problems. I have an acute pancreatitis, which is just as serious just takes longer to kill you. She informs me that I am going to be admitted to the hospital for treatment.
I spend 3 days there poked prodded and infused with bags full of stuff that my pancreas should have been making for my body. At one point I am even moved to a private room so I am not disturbed by another fellow in the shared room that I am in that is very noisy. I need my rest the nurse says. Over the stay I find out I also have elevated liver function enzymes, hyperlipidemia and a slight curve to my spine.
I’m discharged and dreading the bill.
I relate this story to a friend of mine from England. Telling him the whole time I have no idea how I’m gonna pay for this.
He tells me this. “At least your alive to worry about the bills. In England they would have looked at the symptoms (a pinched nerve in your back and pancreatitis have the same pain symptoms) listened to what your history assumed it was your back problem given you pain killers. You wouldn’t have felt the pain went home and died They would have done their best to get you in and out, tell that to Michael Moore”
My parents went bankrupt because of their medical bills. I’d much rather receive the world’s best medical care and go bankrupt that receive the same level of shitty care that everyone else receives, simply out of some sense of egalitarian proletarian “fairness.”
Comments
Trying to compare the health care system in a prison to that of a country is just ridiculous.
On the contrary, A prison system is the epitome of a state run society. You’re fed, clothed, given a place to sleep, given health care, all free of charge. Add in the fact that you’re monitored for most of the day, and it perfectly illustrates the government being in complete control. You’ll have to prove that comparing a prison health care system to a country’s is ridiculous.
The Russian author Fyodor Dostoevsky is alleged to have said, “The way society treats its prisoners characterizes the level of its civilization.”
I am going to assume that under the context you posted this, that you agree with it. Is that fair?
If so, based on what you have presented, do you think medical treatment for prisoners needs improvement? How would you go about it?
If so, based on what you have presented, do you think medical treatment for prisoners needs improvement? How would you go about it?
Stop wasting money on unnecessary surgeries like sex changes. Stop paying for cable television and weight rooms. Remove all extras and “perks,” with food only providing the basic needs, nothing fancy. Make prison a place prisoners don’t want to be and once they get out, never ever want to commit another crime so they don’t end up back.
Buzzion I take it you have never been to jail or prison. Sure the sex change thing was really strange but lets not forget that guy had money to pay for a lawsuit and pressed it for years and was perfectly willing to pay for the operation himself.
But you need to quit watching movies because the media in no way represents what Jail/Prison is really like.
One does indeed only have the basic needs provided for them. Anything extra the inmate must pay for themselfs. And shezuz weight rooms? I think not. Maybee back in the 70’s but those are not allowed in any facility in my state.
Sure lets remove the “perks” like Television books educational programs and give a bunch of pissed off men in jail nothing to do.
Everything is provided to the inmate at a BARE MINIMUM of cost. Got a cavity in your tooth? Rather than fill it they will pull it. There isnt one county jail here in my state that will even provide a pillow, and the blankets are 5’ by 5’ square woolen and scratchy.
Jail/Prison is not a nice place bud, there are no “perks”. And the medical care that is “provided” only makes it worse.
Never been and never plan to go. And did I say get rid of television? No, I said stop paying for cable television.
And your state is of course par for the course for the entire nation right?
Never been and never plan to go. And did I say get rid of television? No, I said stop paying for cable television.
I am no arch criminal I just don’t take shit and deal it out when I think its needed. Never spent more than a week in Jail.
For the Jails Ive been in here, if there was no basic cable - basic note you there would be no TV. No reception out in the sticks.
The rest of the Country? I’m in a red flyover State. I’ve lived here most my life and have not had a chance to screw up in another state so I would not know.
Either way that does not change the fact that you could die of dysentery in just about any jail or prison in this Country, and indeed the medical care where everything is provided everyone in the system gets the same shitty care. Care that is not really care at all but just people on a payroll going through the motions. Because they provide what was it you called it?
only providing the basic needs, nothing fancy
I am going to assume that under the context you posted this, that you agree with it. Is that fair?
Yes, in general I think that’s fair.
If so, based on what you have presented, do you think medical treatment for prisoners needs improvement? How would you go about it?
Well, the fairness of the above quote has to be taken in the larger context of how society treats itself. In many cases prisoners get better care than law-abiding members of society. In 1976 there was a Supreme Court decision which declared that denying a prisoner a medically necessary procedure amounted to cruel and unusual punishment, and was therefore unconstitutional. But are these prisoners being treated any better or worse than anyone else being provided medical care by the government?
Look at the scandal at the VA with the wounded soldiers. Look at the revolting medical facilities provided by the government for the indigent. Look at this prisoner treatment. There is one common thread here: EVERY ONE OF THESE PROGRAMS IS RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT.
The conclusion? The government sucks balls at providing medical care. Period.
Take a moment and read this 60 Minutes transcript from a few years back, where a convicted robber here in California was given a heart transplant. The show interviewed a medical ethicist, and his answer was basically this: “Legally and morally we cannot deny care to anyone based upon their past behavior. Now, if we as a society wish to come together and collectively decide that prisoners should not be sent to the top of the transplant list that is a completely legitimate thing for us to do. Why should a robber or a killer get a heart when plenty of law-abiding, hard working men die every year waiting for one? That’s a perfectly appropriate question to ask. But until such a time as we have that discussion, and we as a society decide that the life of a criminal is worth less than the life of a regular person, then the medical establishment is obligated to treat every patient the same, no matter what their past.”
Fascinating stuff.
Sure lets remove the “perks” like Television books educational programs and give a bunch of pissed off men in jail nothing to do.
Why should my tax money go to entertain criminals? I have never understood that nor have I ever recieved an answer to that question.
Care to “educate” me on that?
I want chain gangs back. I would love to see criminals work their time. Working for the same community they wanted to destroy.
Hell most prisons are hotels and are treated as such.
Care to “educate” me on that?
Alright, since you seem pretty uneducated.
First of all, prison libraries are part of the rehabilitation ideal. You know, rehabilitation, what they’re actually supposed to do to people in jail? If you view jail purely as a punishment for breaking the law, essentially society “grounding” you for being bad, then I can see how you might not get that. But just as grounding a kid rarely makes them keep out of trouble in the future, just locking someone up doesn’t do much to keep them from committing another crime. The library is there so that they can educate themselves and hopefully do something more with their life when they get out. (Unless you’re of the “You should stay in your station” variety.)
Too, bored people are dangerous. They get angry, violent, even psychotic. And while you may be thinking “Good, let the fuckers kill each other”, may I remind you that it’s not always going to be a prisoner getting attacked. There are guards and other workers there who have to worry too. And even though you’re coming off as the sort that thinks “If you’re in prison you automatically deserve all the harshness you get”, I’ll assume you don’t think that some prisoner who got put in there just for, say, creative tax payments deserves to get shanked the same as any murderer or child molester.
Hell most prisons are hotels and are treated as such.
My uncle was in prison once. He recently told me a story about how people would smuggle in (not buy, smuggle in) packets of instant hot chocolate. Except that the only water you could get was from the faucet, which was never going to be hot. Guys were actually so desperate for any hint of the outside world that they came up with a way to heat the water involving two pencil leads and some wire.
You’re right, sounds like the Ritz-Carlton, for sure.
Lest we forget, the catalyst for this post was MOORE’S comparison of medical care using our prisons and Gitmo as examples. Take that into account before you say “well, you can’t really compare prisons to other countries”.
Also, not every hotel is the Ritz-Carlton. Given the choice, I would consider a week in some prisons over the hotel where I stayed during my last business trip.
Alright, since you seem pretty uneducated.
Doubtful but thanks for proving my point and opinion of you.
what they’re actually supposed to do to people in jail?
Damn I guess I’m just old fashioned to think that when you do a crime you should be punis-hed. Oh heavens me but am I that old? You know that old concept that the left are just droo-ling to do away with?
Too, bored people are dangerous. They get angry, violent, even psychotic. And while you may be thinking “Good, let the fuckers kill each other”, may I remind you that it’s not always going to be a prisoner getting attacked. There are guards and other workers there who have to worry too.
First off prison guards are armed and trained to deal with the different situations that present themselvs. Then the fact that they took the job knowing and understanding full well the dan-gers.
“If you’re in prison you automatically deserve all the harshness you get”, I’ll assume you don’t think that some prisoner who got put in there just for, say, creative tax payments deserves to get shanked the same as any murderer or child molester.
Here you are only partialy right. If I had my way there would be no pleace in our jails for rapisits, child molesters, murders, or other violent offenders. They would all be worm food.
Now please tell me what is “creative tax payments” I think you mean someone who cheats the government. But if more people did that then how could we pay for all that rehab, libaries and other useless crap you want to see in our jails? Now who is uneducated?
My uncle was in prison once. He recently told me a story about how people would smuggle in (not buy, smuggle in) packets of instant hot chocolate. Except that the only water you could get was from the faucet, which was never going to be hot. Guys were actually so desperate for any hint of the outside world that they came up with a way to heat the water in-volving two pencil leads and some wire.
As it freakin should be. No one told your uncle to do what ever it was that he did not did they? He made the choice knowing the risks and what would happen WHEN he gets busted. His own fault and not mine.
My question is still un answered. Even with the weak attempt at sarcasim and insult.
Why should my tax money go to entertain criminals? I have never understood that nor have I ever recieved an answer to that question.
Because without at least some attempt of rehabilitation all prison does is make prisoners more dangerous. You lock them up to punish them, but while they are spending their time paying for their crime you try to make sure they can become useful members of society when they are at last released.
Now you can debate as to the merits of that policy all you like, but that is the answer to your question.
Doubtful but thanks for proving my point and opinion of you.
And you for proving mine of you. I answered your question for you, but since it wasn’t the answer you wanted, you ignored it. You are worth no further time or attention.
Sorry your answer was against all forms of logic and the examples you gave only backs that.
Because without at least some attempt of rehabilitation all prison does is make prisoners more dangerous. You lock them up to punish them, but while they are spending their time paying for their crime you try to make sure they can become useful members of society when they are at last released.
Now you can debate as to the merits of that policy all you like, but that is the answer to your question.
I have never argued that in any form. BUT rehab without punishment is useless and only shows the criminal that he can do whatever he wants with out fear of punishment.
Books/libary, education/training GREAT no questions from me there. What I want to see is punishment first. THEN the prisioner must she that he/she has shown that he/she is really ready for rehab.
Sadly I was asking about entertainment and not rehab. Until that is understood I guess no one will be able to answer my question.
Again my question is why should my tax money go to pay for criminals ENTERTAINMENT not rehab but entertainment.
I don’t see a TV a part of rehab unless it is being used inside a classroom.
Try again guys
And you for proving mine of you. I answered your question for you, but since it wasn’t the answer you wanted, you ignored it. You are worth no further time or attention.
No you answered the question you wanted to answer not the question I asked. I asked nothing about rehab. I asked about entertainment.
Please if you have trouble sticking to a single subject I would suggest you go to a Dr and ask for the treatment you obviously need.
You know, this whole “replying to the same comment multiple times trying to get a response” is very familiar…
scald - I don’t speak with any authority on this, but I would have thought that the reason for TVS in prison goes along the lines that a vacant mind is the devils playground - i.e. bored prisoners are dangerous, and more likely to cause trouble. A £100 TV is a really cheap way to keep them docile.
scald - I don’t speak with any authority on this, but I would have thought that the reason for TVS in prison goes along the lines that a vacant mind is the devils playground - i.e. bored prisoners are dangerous, and more likely to cause trouble. A £100 TV is a really cheap way to keep them docile.
But wouldn’t that be an easy way to solve a major problem. let them work. Let then go to school and take training. What let them rot their brains on TV?
I stand by my opinion that entertaining criminals is a waste of money and effort.
After punishment and they proves that they want rehab and education I see no reason to keep that from them.
Still my question goes unasnwered.
You know, this whole “replying to the same comment multiple times trying to get a response” is very familiar…
And you still do not answer my question. You stand so damn high and mighty but you can’t even answer a simple question. I have asked it twice and yet you take little stabs at me.
and the left is supposed to be ohhhhhh soooooo much better than the right. I have yet to see it.
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You could swap “NHS” for “prison” and end up with damn near a verbatim report.
Really? It’s easy to make blanket statements, it’s harder to prove them.
Trying to compare the health care system in a prison to that of a country is just ridiculous.