You have to admit, Lee, that e-mails like this from offended Europeans go a long way in disproving Moore’s assertion that Americans are the stupidest people in the world.

I’ll agree with that. Free speech is alive in America as it was when America first became independent. Roy has no balls and he won’t give any examples because he doesn’t have any. Like most people on the far left, you don’t need evidence, only your word will do.

"Well, I’m European and I live in Spain - a country that suffered terribly under a right-wing dictator. You don’t quite have one of those yet, but you are on the way.”

So, what about the US conservatives is similar to right wing reactionaries? The ‘Republicans’ want to bring back the monarchy? The Hayek reading groupies want to reign in capitalism with corporatism? I know in left wing fantasies it is assumed we want to share power with the church, but again, it is fantasy… Nice smear though, trying to associate American conservatives with the Euro right.

“You could only ever hope to be as forward-thinking as the Europeans.”

Yeah, you did invent fascism, national socialism, and socialism… great…

slore
Yeah, you did invent fascism, national socialism, and socialism… great…

Don’t forget nazism and neo-nazism, which seems to be on the rise in Europe:

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/01/21/neonazi.shtml

It’s enough to make David Duke blush.

Roy is this a thing - you as an european - would be proud of?

Iran row hits Belgian spy chief
(BBC)

The head of Belgium’s state security service has resigned amid allegations that his department failed to disclose nuclear technology transfers to Iran. Koen Dassen stepped down after it emerged that warnings from the CIA about such transfers had gone unheeded.

A Belgian firm, Epsi, allegedly sold Iran an isostatic press, which can strengthen nuclear weapons components.

An international embargo bans nuclear technology transfers to Iran, which denies plans to build an atomic bomb.

[...]It also said the service “had not told the entire truth in the affair”[...]

You could only ever hope to be as forward-thinking as the Europeans. We even have free speech over here. Remember what that is? It’s something that the founding fathers wanted for your country, but that the republicans have made sure you don’t have.

No, Roy.  Free speech is something you are merely permitted in Spain.  In America, it can’t be prohibited.

In fact, your letter is now posted here on an Internet website owned by an American for the entire world to see thereby proving your distorted view of this country reeks of ignorance and bias.  Thousands and thousands of people now get to see just how lame your point really is.

Not very “forward-thinking” if you ask me.

You could only ever hope to be as forward-thinking as the Europeans. We even have free speech over here.

Oh, spare me.  Your smarmy indignation is a poor disguise for your ultimate ignorance, Roy. 

Maybe you’d care to enlighten us knuckle-dragging Yanks as to how your supposed “free speech” in Euroland is facing the ultimate threat under the guise of the EU ‘Charter of Fundamental Rights’?  (a laughable name, considering it prevents as many rights as it ‘guarantees’). 

If anything, try denying the Holocaust in the EU sometime, Roy.  See how far your ‘free speech’ gets you then.  SURE, holocaust deniers are human garbage, but I thought freedom of speech meant protecting speech that you didn’t agree with, as much as speech you do agree with?

FYI, I have no idea why that damn smiley got inserted into my post above.  That was NOT intended.

I’ve asked several of my left-winged friends how in anyway Bush or any Republican has taken away our freedom of speech and the most they can say is because of the Patriot Act was passed but nothing specific.

In a related argument, someone on TotalFark yesterday said ‘This administration has set gay rights back two decades.”

I supprt gay marriage...in fact I’m the asshole who think that you’re a bit of a bigot if you don’t.  That’s an absolutist summary of it, but basically it’s accurate (BOCTAOE).

Given my support of complete and utter destruction of the idea of sexual “preference” should be used in lawmaking...and given that Bush supports a federally-enacted ban on gay marriage...I still found the statement ridiculous.  I asked point blank that they name one federally-enumerated right that gay people had in 1999 that they do not have today.

Crickets and tumbleweeds.  That’s what I got in response.  Hyperbole wins the day with these types, it always will.

Now, there are quite a few examples of speech being curtailed in the last 6 years.  Other rights too.  We gained some ground in the Second Amendment and lost some in the Fourth.  But the fact of the matter is, practically, not one of us has lost the right to criticize our government, to assemble for the purpose of doing so or to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I think the KosKids, Moore and Casey Sheehan’s mother not being in a gulag somewhere are proof of that fact.

crichton:

sl0re did mention national socialism, which is nazism.

As for Euro-trash Roy-boy, if he wants to see ignorance he should just look in the mirror.  Some European countries already have anti-hate-speech laws, which anyone who is “forward-thinking as the Europeans” should know is not free speech.

Lee, one thing I love pointing out to the moonbats who claim that free speech is stifled is the fact that you can go into any NEX, PAX, ect. and buy movies and books from Michael Moore and his ilk and music from bands like System of a Down and Rage Against the Machine.

Posted by JimK on 01/31 at 07:53 PM (Link to this comment)

“and given that Bush supports a federally-enacted ban on gay marriage...”

Along with supporting civil unions. :)

We even have free speech over here.

If we don’t have free speech, then how come all those bumbling morons get to call Bush every name in the book?

Oh wait, when they do that, people who support Bush criticize them back.  That’s tantamount to locking them up in the liberals’ minds.

I have a question for all the haters of this site. If you hate it so much and you are so offended why visit the site, why read it? Liberals are so ignorant!

Movies + stupid people = All rich people are unethical and evil power mongers.

In every movie, for decades now, we see that characters that want money, or are already rich, as villians and assholes.

This is a simple premise. It’s an easy, almost cheap way to relatre to your audience or point them to the bad guy in your film.

This does not reflect real life however. Assuming that all rich people are greedy, power hungry corrupt, assholes is on the same level of saying all blacks are lazy, uneducated, societal burdens.

Stop letting cliche characters in films shape your thoughts on the world people.

Well said, Wolf!

I have a question for all the haters of this site. If you hate it so much and you are so offended why visit the site, why read it?

Because they want to reinforce their ideals by coming here and poo pooing everything on the site without more than a brief skim.  I don’t mind reading that stuff once in a while: it reassures me that there ain’t much between the ears of the far left.  Yet, there was a time, when Para (I think) kept posting hate mail after hate mail after hate mail and it got tiresome.

In any event, I used to post arguements that sometimes got a wee bit carried away on Mikey’s site, as well as Media Matters (THE most absurd liberal propaganda site) and I’ve even gotten banned from the later (it was NOT for my political views… and Superman is NOT really Clark Kent) which was a proud moment.

I have a question for all the haters of this site. If you hate it so much and you are so offended why visit the site, why read it? Liberals are so ignorant!

So they can go on Democratic Underground and alternet.com and moveon.org and brag about how they “shut us down” and rendered us “speechless” with their ingenius attacks.
Believe me on this, I go on their sites all the time and challenge them and get banned every time.  And I have read post after post in which they talk about going to this site in particular and brag about their “accomplishments”.  The truly ironic and hypocritical thing is, they always called me a “troll” even though I actually stuck around and debated them but they dont see themselves as “trolls” even though they come in, make a few asshole comments and then never show their face again.

Who said,if you gaved all poor homeless people the money/homes from the rich,those would be shitheads in no time.

:)

Anyway its funny how all anti-american people who dispite and hate usa love MM.
Mayby MM this is a sign you’re the USA hater which you denies.

But nvm,

“country that suffered terribly under a right-wingdictator”

You havn’t heard about regims and what socialism/communism has done?
Then read a history book dumb fuck.

Sweden>spain.

OK, in seriousness I realize that noone’s lost their 1st Amendment Rights, and that the examples the Left brings up to show it have all been proven hoaxes.

But, COME ON: Even if you were in Europe and thus getting everything through a socialist filter, you have the internet.

And what do you as a European see/read there (aside from Euro kiddie-porn) on the internet?

You have DailyKos saying they’ve been silenced. You have Moore saying he was silenced (buy his movie!). You have Sheehan saying she was silenced. You have MoveOn.org saying they’ve been silenced. You have the Democratic Party saying it’s been stifled in debate and repeatedly claim it will be ‘silent no longer’. You have the mass national media websites (w/clips, etc. to go along) echoing these sentiments. You have so-called “non-partisan” special interests (funded by the Moore crowd) talkign about how horrible it is to be silenced. You have the Left-wing “think tanks” examing all the “silencing”. You have the entire Leftist blogoshpere saying its been silenced…

As any European reads this, I can only imagine that (having 4 braincells) you’d start think:

“OK… so who the f*ck exactly has been made to shut up?”

Greetings Roy.

Thank you for your opinion.  Please be sure to use plenty of chapstick.  I have a feeling you will be kissing American ass pretty soon, and frankly I don’t want any chaffing.

Europeans think themselves as forward-thinking because
they are European. I’m failing to see the connection between forward-thinking and membership in the European Union. Sure, Europe is home to historical sites, art and literature that has been the foundation of Western civilisation. That doesn’t mean Europeans appreciate it. How is that forward-thinking? Catering to terrorists (such as booting Zapatera out after the terrible train bombings) doesn’t strike me as forward-thinking but cowardice. First, they ignore countries languishing under totalitarianism during the Cold War (even, in some cases, profiting from it) and then raise a stink when countries like Poland or Romania want in the European Union. How is this forward-thinking?  Gay “marriage”? In a Catholic country? For a minority? Yeah, a real boon to society. And seeing Moore as some kind of sage. That says it all.

I think the incorrect assumption here is that forward thinking is inherently correct thinking.  New ideas and forward thinking are only good when they work.  Plenty of folks come up with bad new ideas.  But that’s sort of white washed out of the counter culture’s agenda.  They have made a nitch for themselves that rates the validity of their ideas as second in priority to their desire to be revolutionary. 

This leaves them in a bit of a precarious place. I happen to think it is responsible for the rudderless direction of the modern left.  The counter culture became the establishment.  They had good ideas.  But since they identified themselves as anti establishment, they have to become against their own good ideas in order to keep their identity.  It leaves them in this torn blustering state that they currently are in.  Their identity is based on railing against the establishment but the establishment, based on some of their own good ideas, works pretty good.

That is to say that they romanticize the revolutionary visionaries of our history, but give no consideration for the need or difficulty of actually having a vision or a means to achieve that vision.

Jesus...He is spanish,he doesnt represent europe ffs…
Nor “Spain”.
Or mayby howard dean is a average american or cindy sheehan.
Talk about normal americans you must be…

Or mayby howard dean is a average american or cindy sheehan.
Talk about normal americans you must be…

Then who are the leaders in the Democrat party that represent the averate American?  They certainly aren’t very vocal, because right down the line the Democrat leadership appears to all be saying the same things.  Dean, Gore, Kennedy, the Clintons, Kerry, Pelosi.  If they aren’t representative of the party...why the hell does the party allow them to speak in the party’s name?  Responsible and rational Democrats should be beside themselves trying to correct the record.  Where are they?

The same goes for “spain”.  If the words of that guy up above aren’t representative, then where the heck are the true Spaniards?

Because 48-50% Americans votes on democrats,and they are fucking nuts.

Well, I’m European and I live in Spain

Let me point out that it is very doubtful that Roy Henderson is Spanish.  First of all, he only says he lives in Spain and it goes without saying that his name sounds like he’s a Brit.  What is interesting is that he claims to be a European as if it is a nationality.  Undoubtedly he is a big believer in the EU and all it stands for, and probably thinks nationality is “backward-thinking.”

… then where the heck are the true Spaniards?

They are the ones who voted in Zapatero and surrendered to Al Qaeda.

It’s strange that some people here seem to think that all Europeans are part of the looney left.  Give me a break.

Does Michael Moore represent America, or just the extremist left-wing? 

Same thing in Europe, only in Europe political decisions are made behind closed door, and definitely NOT in the polling booth. 

In America the choice is really quite simple : you vote for a Republican or you vote for a Democrat.  In Europe, you vote for one party, then find out they form a coalition with parties you despise, and “your” party simply forgets every single promise they made in the run-up to the elections, because basically : what are you going to do about it?  This is supposed to be “democracy"…

I’m smart enough to understand that “the people” never make all the decisions.  It would simply be practically impossible.  And that goes for any country in the world, including the USA.  But there’s very, very few countries in Europe that can claim as much voter influence on the making of political decisions (or simply put “policy") as the USA. 

Michael Moore, and any other American for that matter, can call the US president any foul name he wants, and absolutely nothing will happen to him (other than receiving the admiration of every nutcase in North America and Europe).  Our good friend Roy, on the other hand, will think twice about calling the Spanish king any names, because if he did, he would soon find himself in some dark alley with a few extra bulletholes in his back.  But then again, the king of Spain was put on the throne by ... dictator Franco.  I suggest Roy shows just how much free speech there is in his beloved Spain by publicly calling King Juan Carlos a monster, murderer, dictator ... Come on Roy, I dare you.  If you are so convinced of the total superiority of Spain when it comes to free speech, there’s nothing to stop you, right?  For some reason, I don’t think it would be wise for me to hold my breath until you do.  Free speech in Europe?  Let’s see : Holland maybe.  The Scandinavian countries aren’t too bad.  But Spain : you must be joking.  A few weeks ago, the democratically elected government of Catalunia (in the north-east of Spain) declared that it wanted more autonomy.  The head of the Spanish armed forces threatened to invade Catalunia if such terms were ever used again.  Seems like you have to be careful what you say in Spain.  Your speech is free as long as the state agrees with it…

In an earlier post, someone mentioned the Belgian firm that supplied a press to Iran.  The CIA warned the secret service in Belgium against this, but they did absolutely nothing.  Now the head of the secret service has resigned.  But he hasn’t escaped his punishment for his incompetence : as punishment, the Belgian minister of internal affairs has made him head of the government agency for “European and international of safety and migration policy”.  In Belgium, that socialist nightmare, you don’t fire people for supplying arms to an extremist dictatorship like Iran, hell no!  You just give them another job, and what job could be more appropriate than one concerning “safety” for someone who looked to other way when the CIA warned him a firm was exporting stuff that would help the nuclear weapons policy of Teheran?  Belgium : it’s a joke, but not funny if you have to live here.

I do not believe Roy represents the average Euro any more than Moore or Sheehan represent my fellow Americans.  Heck most Euros I know are for more polite on the issue of politics than many liberal Americans I deal with.  Not that I claim to have a monopoly on what anyone believes, but that is my experience.:)

In sweden we have 7 parties.

4 liberals is most like republicans.
3 socials is like democrats…

My mom has voted on the communist/social party when she was younger,and when she got a family she been voting for the most liberal/conservatie party,but she has voted on 3 diffrent liberal parties…

All party has diffrent agenda and compete vs each other,if they had the chance they wouldn’t wanna co-work with any other party.
So its much true like ozzie says,we doesnt have just 2 parties to choose,or a “side"(well right or left… but).

opps… forgot to add,one of the social and one of the liberal isn’t/social/liberal,they just chosen that side to be in,cause they need to choose side on which to rule with.
So basically we have 4 diffrent sides… gahhh,with 7 parties..

Come on quez, “liberals” are more like Democrats and “socialists” are even further to the left.  There are very few parties in Europe that are anything like the Republicans.  Even Le Pen’s nationalists would be considered to the left in the U.S.  Republicans are for less government (at least in theory; we all know how that has worked out in reality), while European parties are almost all some form of socialist (in U.S. terms) and are differentiated more by how much government they want.  Chirac is considered right-wing in France and in the U.S. he would be on the left side of the Democratic Party.

We have a party that got 13% last votes and are on the liberal side with 48%,they stand for kicking out imigrants who doesnt speak perfect swedish,they wanna put punishment for crimes much higher then what we have here today,they stand for cutting the taxes by big time.
They made so swedish säpo like our FBI...have the right and should follow and listen on the phones on young muslims cause they see them as the biggest threat in todays time and they might become terrorist if they cant stop and confront the mand rehcnage them in time.

And no this is no nazi party,in fact they did the same thing with nazi people at the 80’s.But now they think Islamist fundemalist are the biggest threat.

They also wanted to send the swedish army to afghanistan/iraq to help bush fight the war on terrorism,basically if they win this election,swedish soldiers might be sended to iraq who knows.
They wanna give teacher very high power in schools and make disciplins as it once “was”.

They belive the corporations is the way to fix the swedish economy,and they(the gov) should not interfer,and people who hire others often should have tax-cutes.
They also stand for putting every swedish person into work,with helping people start own companies.
Basically they think like this,less taxes leads to more companies,which leads to more employers which leads to more tax money.

When MM did Fahrenheit 9/11 they sended people with documents outside the theaters which had info about MM’s lies.

They are at the moment 3rd biggest party in sweden with 13% of the votes.
And with all polls shown at the moment Liberals will win the election,and their party leader might even be our statsminister.
And they arn’t even the most liberal party or the biggest.

If you wanna call them democrats or socalist feel free to do so but they would get offended.
Liberals in Europe is not what you think.
France is a strange country though…

The values and the parties was create by peopl from the late 1700,when rich liberals wanted free speech free press,no monarchy,and being able to vote, btw they even assainated the swedish king Gustav III at 1792 to reach their dreams which was inspired from France and America.

In ww2 socialist people and their own paper thought sweden should be a nation with nazi germany and hitler was a great guy.
Why did not the socialist people thought good of stalin? or russia?
I dont know,but you see...the names here is not what you think always…

Oh forgot to add,the socialist people today,claim those people must have been liberal people…

quez

“Liberals in Europe is not what you think.
France is a strange country though…”

Yes… although I think in France liberal is more like what you describe also. It is only the English speaking world where the term is messed up to mean socialist… I think the reason for the mess goes back to the US actually. Around our President FDR’s time in office progressives (many of whom were also socialists) started calling themselves liberals…

Posted by quez on 02/01 at 03:21 PM (Link to this comment)

“In ww2 socialist people and their own paper thought sweden should be a nation with nazi germany and hitler was a great guy.”

I know. A lot of thinkers involved in ‘right wing’ politics came from the left… ‘Neither Left or Right’ is a good book on early proto Euro right wing thinking… Anyway, it’s why they call themselves ‘national socialists’.

But, what is the name of that liberal party that may win?

"But, what is the name of that liberal party that may win?”
Moderaterna,basically they usally has gotten ~20% of the votes,but last election they got 15%,however they had the worse party leader,but now they gotten the most loved of all in parties,the polls for him are sky high,everyone loves him,and even socialist people and their polls has admit he seems to be way more popular then any other.

Also a communist tried to attack probably him when he rushed into a moderat party with a knife,and that just made him even more popular.

http://www.moderat.se/fredrik.asp?menyid=4&flikid;=1&webbid;=1

here he is…

Anyway,he is winning a lot of social people votes,cause their lifes has been ruined,a lot of americans think;it must be great to not having to work and just stay home and get money via the social system.
But it breaks down people it really does,it kills people,people are ashamed and feel like they arn’t worth a shit.

Mayby this is something that is a luxury for us people in the west but its really causing mental problems for a lot of swedish people,and a lot former socialdemocrats has realised they need a work and socialdemokraterna isn’t they way,while Fredrik in the moderaterna promise to fix job for everyone,with helping creating a lot of small buisness and give tax-cuts to big companies so they stay and hire in Sweden.

The violence in Sweden needs to be fixed to,only he sees it,our statminister “Göran Persson” pretends it doesnt exist,and our gov belives in rehab instead of punishment,while the liberals says,first punishment then rehab.
Think of the victim not the offender.

Sweden is supposed to be so peaceful,but our statminister was shot to death by a unknown assassin when he went to a movie in 1986 and decied not to have his bodyguards,our lovley foreign minister “Anna lindh” was brutally slaughter by a sicko with a knife in a open big shopping maul,for being our foreign minister.

Sweden needs to be safe once again,in sweden at the 60’s you could leave bicycle unlocked in the city and come back a week later and get it...well try do it now...i see drugers picking locks on the open day outside the biggest movie palace in our beloved Stockholm,i see all this kind of crap.

I see people without homes asking for money to a coffe when i take the train,why do we pay for imigrants and pay world highest taxes and still let some of our own people be without homes.
It sickenss me.
those fucking social wessels needs to go,and its finally gonna happening this year.

When my grandma died of cancer,those social wessels stole all her belongs and her home and her 2nd home on the countryside they couldn’t wait one single day to let my dad try and lend money,and our damn politians doesnt even show up at “riksdag” everyday,they are hardly even working,they make 10 times more money then a school teacher,and claiming the rich people in sweden is the plauge...i cant fucking take it anymore,they have to go.

Sweden is soon piss…

My grandma has paid 33% of her income her whole life,and when she got cancer,the doctors could not even help her,if she had done a private founding she might had lived,i dont wanna deny the doctors who worked extra time with her surgency and so on,but the health care sux,it really does.
Its great for us people with small sickness or mayby if you break a leg or so and is in a small family,but if you got a life threating thing,they will put you on such a long list you might as well take suicide then to suffer the pain from cancer,as my grandma had to,cause of the waiting list.

Dammit…
i get so fucking mad…

I be the first one to admit it… even though it fucking hurts me very much,and i love sweden so fucking much,and our beloved Stockholm.

But USA is the best country in the world.
And we are probably just jealous shithead whenever we write shit about USA,im so fucking mad,when i see how great country USA is and what a great leader you have,im in fucking envy,it pisses me off,that we could be as good as USA or even better if just changed out those fucking social wessels who is ruing this country.

They arn’t gonna fucking steal my money anymore,the homeless will go away and people will get jobs dammit :( i wont stop belive in that…

Posted by quez on 02/01 at 04:30 PM (Link to this comment)

“I be the first one to admit it… even though it fucking hurts me very much,and i love sweden so fucking much,and our beloved Stockholm.”

Well, if you ever have to get out… that’s what America is for. It’s not just the people of Euro decent either… don’t even ask a Vietnamese [American] about leftists…

They are the ones who voted in Zapatero and surrendered to Al Qaeda.

That was my point exactly.  The level of rhetoric we hear from the country (or political body) has to be considered representative of the countrymen (or members of the body) that support it. 

As a whole, over here we have idiots like Moore and Sheehan raising their voices in such vapid leftist loonatic rants that there are socialist dictators who try distance themselves to the right.  But that can hardly be described as the only audible voice in our nation.  Quite the contrary, our government itself shows that the real national voice represents quite the opposite view.  One would have to assume then that through the entire political spectrum, the American majority is moderate to moderate conservative. 

This is why I have to ask where all the rational Democrats are.  There should be loads of them riding that line that Senator Lieberman and Senator Miller ride.  But it seems like the core Democrat leadership is trying to appeal to what most in America would consider the fringe left.  Surely there are moderate Democrats that see this.  Where are they?  Why aren’t they getting themselves into leadership roles to try and save the sinking ship?

Posted by fangbeer on 02/01 at 08:06 PM (Link to this comment)

“Surely there are moderate Democrats that see this.  Where are they?”

They are out there. Part of this is being caused by campaign finance reform. Rather than limit spending it enabled it. The super rich can now give huge amounts to groups like Moveon. This enabled them to do a lot of campaigning for kook views… and for the partisan base, many people in both parties buy the party line… Moveon had the loudest voice so it made many normal people start espousing lunatic ideas. It threw off the balance in the force so to speak… It has momentum for now but hopefully it will adjust soon… One thing that will help is lunatic left over reach. When nuts like Cindy start running against moderate libs (rather than just demanding pandering) they’ll finally fight it out amongst themselves… The DLC is a moderate dem group BTW… it was running the dem show before campaign finance reform. It is now fighting behind the scenes to regain control.

No,i wont leave Sweden/Stockholm,my reletvies has lived here for over 1000 of years,and i have a “good life”.
Its just that those social wessels are destroy peoples life here,and if it goes as i belive Sweden will be a liberal country once more :)

Posted by quez on 02/02 at 03:11 AM (Link to this comment)

“Sweden will be a liberal country once more”

Staying and fighting the good fight. :)

Cool, you may want to check out the forums then. You might pick up some anti-statist arguments that could help.
http://moorewatch.com/index.php/forums/

I can safely say he doesn’t speak for all Roy’s.
Not that my name is Roy or anything, but if it were, (maybe,but it’s not, maybe) I wouldn’t be talkin’ trash like that. Could you guys stop using his name and just call him idiot? (Not that it makes me uncomfortable or anything hearing “Roy is stupid” or “Roy is an idiot)
*uncomfortable silence*
Rapid uhhh Ron

I’ve asked several of my left-winged friends how in anyway Bush or any Republican has taken away our freedom of speech and the most they can say is because of the Patriot Act was passed but nothing specific.

Next time, your follow up question should be something along the lines of, “have you ever read the Patriot Act,” or, “which section number?” Sadly, I think an ACLU ad or Michael Moore hanging out of an ice cream truck is all they need in their own minds.

There is no gov who has taken away freedom of speech,not a social or liberal,if they did media would cover it and then the party would be screwed next election,and in USA,the left wing media would not miss out to find anything that made bush sound as a facist.