I simply cannot believe Moore just compared the pain of someone losing their house to the pain of a woman who just got raped. I am so deeply and violently offended by that comparison that I honestly find myself at a loss for words. I think Moore needs to be forced to sit through some police interviews, psychology sessions and therapy groups and listen to these women talk about what it’s like to be raped, to be so terribly and intimately assaulted that most are scarred for life. How in the world can that most terrible of crimes be compared to a housing foreclosure?

I honestly have no words to describe how horribly offensive that is. Wow.

I’d note that the benefits of home ownership (vs. renting) are exaggerated.... to sell houses.

When you add up all the maintenance, property taxes, et cetera… The appreciation benefits evaporate… Renting is cheaper, if you set the difference aside and save it every month, renting is not a bad deal.

Well you see, Donna, when a person doesn’t have any legitimate arguments to make, they’ll generally do one of two things:

1) Admit they’re wrong and shut up or
2) Invoke some kind of outrageous hyperbole, normally involving either rape or Adolph Hitler. I suppose it would be possible to create one using both, but that would require more imagination than I have.

I watched Hannity’s interview, and the most amusing thing was Moore’s amazing ability to talk for 15 minutes without mentioning his film or even capitalism in general. In fact, Moore barely talks about the movie at all.

If only Han Solo had been able to kill him back on Tatooine. Not sure how he escaped from that floating slave ship…

I’d note that the benefits of home ownership (vs. renting) are exaggerated.... to sell houses.

When you add up all the maintenance, property taxes, et cetera… The appreciation benefits evaporate… Renting is cheaper, if you set the difference aside and save it every month, renting is not a bad deal.

Yes and no. Whilst it is true that the benefits are greatly exaggerated, if you buy intelligently there can be substantial benefits. When Jim and I bought our house the neighborhood was *just* beginning to blossom and the price of the house was quite low and definitely reasonable. Even now in this housing crisis our house is currently worth nearly double what we paid for it. If you’re able to get a deal in a neighborhood where the values of the houses are just at the beginning a long, steady increase you can have a nice investment on your hands by buying.

YMMV, of course. :)

I think Moore needs to be forced to sit through some police interviews, psychology sessions and therapy groups and listen to these women talk about what it’s like to be raped, to be so terribly and intimately assaulted that most are scarred for life.

You know it wouldn’t mean anything to him. He’s proven time again that no tragedy is too soul-wrenching or stomach-turning for him to simply sit there and think “How can I make a movie off of this...?”

It wouldn’t affect him, because he can’t think of anything but himself. Seeing their pain, hearing their stories, that would just be someone else’s problem to him, unless he could find a way to make it useful to himself.

I really like this site because of posts like this.  It’s nice to see an intelligent counterpoint to the intentionally polarized views presented on television.  I think it’s worth mentioning however that Moore wasn’t comparing foreclosure with rape, he was saying that blaming poor people for losing their houses was like blaming rape victims for getting raped.  It’s still a ridiculous analogy - as if buying a house you can’t afford could ever be compared to that kind of violation - but let’s at least get angry about the right thing, yeah?

Anyways, good post about perspective.

Posted by DonnaK on 10/08/2009 at 08:47 PM

“Yes and no. Whilst it is true that the benefits are greatly exaggerated, if you buy intelligently there can be substantial benefits.
“

Same as any investment. You can win or you can loose… but on average, renting is a better deal if you do something with the savings rather than spend it.

The thing is, people are told its a slam dunk win and/or if you buy a modest house it is a good investment (with in implication being, compared to renting). I think thats overstated. If you rented, you’d probably be able to save more (and/or invest) than you’d make from buying.

The nice thing about renting is that if the economy in the whole area goes south *cough Flint cough cough* you can pick up and move elsewhere; you aren’t tied to a house you can’t sell.

As far as “blaming victims” goes---I know this isn’t going to go over well, but a lot of people become crime victims by doing stupid, careless things.  This doesn’t mean that they deserve to be victims, but at least, they should be told frankly that their own asswitted behavior contributed to their woes.  Flashing around a big wad of bills in a skeezy bar in a bad part of town, particularly if you don’t fit in ethnically and don’t look like you eat Hells Angels for breakfast, is a good way to end up mugged.  It’s no different from swimming in shark-infested waters...yes, it’s possible to do so and come out unharmed, but you’re upping your chances of being harmed significantly.

While getting ready for church this morning I saw that the moore interview is going to have an “encore” presentation tonight on Hannity.  I didn’t see it the first time, but if Hannity’s airing it again it can’t be all good for the fallacious documentary film maker.

is to make recessions as few and far between as possible.  And the best way to do that is through capitalism.  But Mike would apparently prefer the continuous and unending recession that is socialism.

mikeS, funny that you do not mention unchecked capitalism as the primary cause of the recession.  capitalism is all great and wonderful, but the necessity for checks and balances exist. what exactly is wrong with socialism again? aside from all the demagogy that has been purported by those in power whilst they profit from the fears of the ignorant.  to take a line from the conservative playbook, anyone who detests socialism should not use any services in the U.S. that are based on socialist principles.

*sigh* alas i realize this comment will fall on death ears, and I am merely here out of boredom.  my only conciliation is to know that many of the ignorant people that empower the corrupt members in our government and private industry (democrat and republican) will suffer the great irony of life, and the universe will be better off for it. :-)

First, in regard to foreclosures and evictions, most banks and landlords are willing to work with people.  Seldom is that ever returned by the person who owes the money. 

I am a member of a property management group whose properties include literally thousands of rental units.  We don’t want to throw people out in the cold.  We don’t want to evict.  On a personnel side, there is something that feels wrong about evicting someone from their home.  On the legal side, it costs a lot of money to evict someone.  It is a case of throwing away more money on a cause that doesn’t make anyone happy or thrilled.

All we ask is that you work with us.  Give landlords and banks half of what they are due.  Give them anything that you can.  The real problems come in when the landlord gets nothing doesn’t hear from the tenant and the tenant take aggressive steps to avoid the landlord. 

If you can’t pay the rent, pay what you can.  That shows good faith on your part.  Landlords and banks don’t want to evict but feel they have to after the tenant does not live up to their obligations and take no steps to help remedy the situation.

Talk to us.  We know times are tough.  Most landlords will work with people but you have to meet them part of the way.

Secondly,

anyone who detests socialism should not use any services in the U.S. that are based on socialist principles.

This is always one of the more ridiculous “gotcha” points that people try to make.  In essence, the person says “if you don’t like the government stealing your money, just bend over further.”

Tell ya what.... you go first. 

Unless you are a Christian, then tell your boss you want to work on Thanksgiving and Christmas.  Don’t like the military?  Make sure you work on Memorial Day. 

Don’t like capitalism? Make sure that you don’t partake of any products, goods, or services that come out of it.

Until you do that, your point is hypocritical.

gitarcarver:

Thank you for one of the best thought-out and more insightful comments we’ve had on here in a while. I know that most people look at the foreclosure situation and think it’s an all or nothing proposition - that lenders or landlords will only take the full amount owed and are never willing to negotiate. As someone who’s had to negotiate credit card debt in the past I’ve found most lenders INCREDIBLY willing to be extremely accommodating as long as you talk to them. This, by the way, is also true of large hospital bills. *cough*

Thank you again for putting a different light on this situation. :)

DonnaK,

One of the things that I have found is that people who cannot pay fully or who cannot pay at all are embarrassed by the situation. 

I can understand the embarrassment.  I really can.  What I always tell my tenants is that the embarrassment of saying “we are short this month,” or “we can’t pay for a couple of weeks,” or “we can’t pay everything,” is a whole heck of a lot less embarrassing than having the deputy sheriffs come, pound on your door, and then have 4 burly guys start tossing your belongings and finally your butt out onto the street. 

If you can’t pay, the conversation stays between you and me.  EVERYONE sees an eviction. 

Whatever people can pay is better than an empty apartment.  I would rather work with someone to allow them to stay when times are tough than to kick them out.

Please, just talk to people and make the effort to send something our way. 

Thanks for the kind words on the post.

Whatever people can pay is better than an empty apartment.  I would rather work with someone to allow them to stay when times are tough than to kick them out.

Please, just talk to people and make the effort to send something our way.

Not to sound pithy, but THIS. I couldn’t agree with this statement (or the whole of this comment) more if I tried. I truly and honestly believe that if more people just reached out to each other they’d be surprised at how many arms they’d find reaching back. No one wants to be evicted or do the evicting. And something is always better than nothing. It amazes me how these simple and basic facts are never discussed when the housing crisis is brought up. Did the homeowners/renters try to negotiate? Was any effort made by either party to work this dispute out? You never hear those stories, just the one that demonize lenders and victimize homeowners/renters, when in reality both sides are just people trying to make their way. If more people in trouble would reach out to their lenders and tried to negotiate I think we’d be in far less of a crisis, I truly do.

But hey, what do I know… ;)

Thanks again for the insightful comments. :)

"Unchecked Capitalism”...what does that mean, exactly? I’m wondering how “unchecked capipitalism” can exist when there’s a government-run central bank manipulating the currency and influencing every economic decision we make?

Since the government on all the various local, state, and federal levels take a hefty percentage of our money, I don’t understand how you can call our version of capitalism “unchecked”.

Furthermore, you have the FCC, the FDA, the SEC, the Secret Service, the FBI, The EPA, and state and local law enforcement agencies looking over our shoulder, enforcing a labyrinth of government rules for just about everything we do, make, or see. This hardly seems “unchecked” to me.

Where exactly is this “unchecked capitalism” going on?

Posted by DonnaK on 10/08/2009 at 07:56 PM (Link to this comment | )
I simply cannot believe Moore just compared the pain of someone losing their house to the pain of a woman who just got raped. I am so deeply and violently offended by that comparison that I honestly find myself at a loss for words. I think Moore needs to be forced to sit through some police interviews, psychology sessions and therapy groups and listen to these women talk about what it’s like to be raped, to be so terribly and intimately assaulted that most are scarred for life. How in the world can that most terrible of crimes be compared to a housing foreclosure?

I honestly have no words to describe how horribly offensive that is. Wow.

You seem like a rational, intelligent person.  Watch the clip again.  You can’t really believe that is what he is saying, can you?  He is making a point (valid or not), about blaming the victim for the crime.  If you can quote me a line from the clip which shows he is talking about the ‘pain’ rather than where the guilt lies, let me know.

up4debate:

You seem like a rational, intelligent person.  Watch the clip again.  You can’t really believe that is what he is saying, can you?  He is making a point (valid or not), about blaming the victim for the crime.  If you can quote me a line from the clip which shows he is talking about the ‘pain’ rather than where the guilt lies, let me know.

You’re right. I watched the clip again and listened more carefully. His point is about blaming the victim for the crime and not about comparing pain. I think I just got shellshocked at the reference and I missed this.

I stand corrected. Thank you. :)

I dont think it was a very good analogy either. Hmmm, logy means like, ‘the study of’, doesnt it, or something like that?  weird word.