You do know the only reason people read your site is because when sicko came out you posted a link to the torrent. (which was obviously leaked on purpose) I’m no communist, but I do have a burning question. Why is it that all of you right wingers say that communism failed? Isn’t it communist china that owns a large portion of our debt in which they can call in at any point? And what percent of the mortgages in this country do they own that could be called in at any point? So with a blink of an eye they could decide to make our dollars worth as much as toilet paper. For a nation practicing a failed economic system they sure do got us by the balls eh? So if an ass backwards system like communism has enabled foreign nationals to own a percentage of our houses, property, and natural wealth, how fucked is our system?

Maybe because they got all that money with FREE MARKET REFORMS. Guess what? There are billionaires in China now.

The late, great Lee wrote about this strange shift...he asked “Is it better to be in a country that says it’s repressive and communist, but really lets you do what you want, or in a so-called “free” country where you can’t?”

While we claim to have a free market, endless regulations and high taxes make the market a lot less free than it should be. Couple that with the poverty and hordes of cheap laborers available in China, and you have the perfect enviornment for businesses to move their manufacturing operations overseas.

The Federal Reserve’s manipulation of the currency helped to finance all the dumb social programs and needless wars we’ve fought in the last half-century. This led to the staggering debt we’re now stuck with.

Socialism has done us in, and the free market helped it happen.

I’m no communist

That’s strange, you’re certainly stupid enough to be one.

Perhaps you’re simply a liar instead?

That’s strange, you’re certainly stupid enough to be one.

Perhaps you’re simply a liar instead?

So much anger, and so little substance. At least the guy who posted above you made some decent points. But you obviously don’t have a constructive thought in your empty little head. Why don’t you redirect your anger and put your energy towards something constructive, like working to get sarah palin elected. She’ll straighten everything right out.

Capitalism its self isn’t a bad idea in theory. The problem is in this country we never learned the lesson of not shitting where you eat, just like every nation in decline does.

So much anger

You call that “so much anger”? I wasn’t aware that they had internet connections in Care-A-Lot… well, okay, I wasn’t aware they had jobless losers in Che T-shirts in Care-A-Lot either, shows what those damn bears get for putting in low-rent housing.

(Also, you do realize that you whined about me calling you stupid and said it invalidated any point I might have, and then spent five times as long calling me stupid?)

How can you allude to my financial situation without knowing a thing about me? Shows how ignorant and prejudice you are. If you must know I’m a software engineer and I own my home out right. Yes no mortgage payments to the red Chinese. So I won’t be out on my ass when the final nail is hammered into the coffin of our dieing economic system. But you just keep praying to santa jesus and maybe Sarah Palin will come fix everything. If not you can come stay with me, we could use another asshole around here.

"7. Replace capitalism with democracy
What the hell? Democracy is a political system. It isn’t even a legal system. So how can he even conceptualize replacing capitalism with democracy? What do we do? Vote on what job someone will get, how much they get paid, how much his groceries will cost, and so on?”

I think that is what he is saying… although your right, that has another name.

Some things should be out of bounds for people to vote on. Like taking your life (re: unless your a murderer), liberty, or property…

Posted by mstewart207 on 10/25/2009 at 11:28

“I’m no communist, but I do have a burning question. Why is it that all of you right wingers say that communism failed? Isn’t it communist china that owns a large portion of our debt in which they can call in at any point?”

I’d say China is fascist now… then again, the jump from public ownership socialism to national socialism was not very big…

So run with your arguement / question. ‘I’m no fascist, but I do have a burning question… ya ya blaw blaw"… Its still as pointless btw…

"9. Don’t want to lose his democratic rights when he goes to work in the morning or go to the bank
At this point it is pretty clear he doesn’t know what the word democratic means. Even the Greeks wouldn’t stretch it to include commercial activity. He is just using it as a buzz word to avoid using the word socialism. This kind of demonstrates just how stupid #5 is. “

It’s sort of a long term project. There was that Chomsky book ‘failed state’ where this was the theme (your not a democracy unless your socialist / do what I want)… and one of the first overtly political things I remember were my school teachers scoffing about the US not being a ‘democracy’ when it was discussed (I was like 8, so 30+ years ago)… and they were not doing it because the US was a ‘republic’.. It was because they didn’t like the US system and apparently this ‘democracy = good’ to leftist meme was already in the air.

"10. Stop the debate between capitalism and socialism
Umm...okay? One system is based on voluntary individualism and the other is based on coercive collectivism. There may be a wide spectrum between two extremes but how exactly do you propose breaking this paradigm? Wouldn’t involving democratic voting in commercial activity just lead to the coercive model? Or did you think people wouldn’t notice?”

Mussolini worked it out pretty well with his corporate based representation system… gave the US progressives a lot of ideas for administrative law. You know, if your into that.. me, not so much.

So how come every time I hear a right winger speak of china they always refer to them as communist China? Besides the USA is a fascist country. The vote means shit. Corporations feed politicians money and that’s the only way they can get elected. And the media won’t tell the people the truth. The media is run by four or five guys who are golfing buddies. So the politicians get into office and do the business of their corporate masters. I mean just look at the obscene bank bailouts. The big corporations own the government and you can’t argue with that.

My argument is we once had the best system, until the greed heads got full control. If you want to go back to the 50’s and 60’s, America was a monument to all the best instincts of the human race that the world had never seen. You want to rail about taxes, during the Eisenhower admin the taxes rate for the top bracket was at or around 90%.

The Federal Reserve’s manipulation of the currency helped to finance all the dumb social programs and needless wars we’ve fought in the last half-century. This led to the staggering debt we’re now stuck with.

This guy hit the nail right on the head. I may be a lefty, but the i believe the federal reserve should be done away with. The federal reserve loans us our currency with an amount of interest… so where do we get the money to pay the interest? From the fed printing out more money at interest. The only result can be debt and slavery. The astonishing fact is, if all debts were paid public and private, there would not be a single dollar in circulation. How fucked is that? I know all you right wingers hate social programs, but think about how much of the taxes you already pay strictly go to pay the private federal reserve. With that loot we could feed the poor and look out for the people among us who can’t look out for them selves.

So here’s what I see… All the banks are foreclosing on peoples homes. Big oil has their commodities and so on. The corporations are grabbing all the commodities and natural wealth before the dollar tanks. That way when our financial system collapses they have everything that is actually worth something, and we are all stuck wiping our asses with federal reserve notes that might as well be monopoly money. BTW I should add that its my belief that Obama = FAIL puppet.

Besides the USA is a fascist country. The vote means shit.

I knew there was a Che t-shirt there. :awesomeface:

I knew there was a Che t-shirt there. :awesomeface:

So you don’t think the corporations and government have merged? Or do you have any idea? Because all I heard from you is vitriol and half assed vitriol at that. Maybe you can tell me what Glen Beck says. At least the other two posters can have an intelligent discussion.

I’m really not going to get into this debate at this moment, but I just have to say one thing… why oh why must you insist on calling everyone on this site “all you right wingers”? Why on earth would you immediately assume that we all lean right politically?

For the record, I don’t. Up until two years ago I was a registered Democrat. I’m VERY much a centrist with small-l libertarian views. I’m not right wing at all.

Guess what else? A large portion of the readers and writers here fall into similar categories. I’m quite sure you don’t like it when people stereotype you. I don’t appreciate being stereotyped anymore than you do. I would appreciate you not doing that. You don’t have to be “right wing” to disagree with Michael Moore.

Okay, I guess there’s one more thing I have to say in response to this:

You do know the only reason people read your site is because when sicko came out you posted a link to the torrent.

I’m wondering how that can be true when the period of time when this site had the most amount of traffic was during F 9/11. Y’know, the movie BEFORE Sicko. So… you would be wrong on this point. Just thought I’d make that correction.

Okay, I’m done for now.

I’m really not going to get into this debate at this moment, but I just have to say one thing… why oh why must you insist on calling everyone on this site “all you right wingers”? Why on earth would you immediately assume that we all lean right politically?

You are right and I apologize for generalizing. I just looked at the adds on the right hand side of the page and saw things like conservative blog advertising. I would refer to all the posters at the huffingtonpost as left wingers. Not everyone is, but the vast majority are. Also it is usually right wingers who like to falsely accuse people of being commies and make unsubstantiated claims that people are on welfare. For example my internet connection from care-a-lot is holding up fine thank you.

Also I don’t think it helps your point to admit that this site peaked 5 years ago.

I find it difficult to accept your apology when you offer it with a handful of insulting and derogatory remarks. You continue to make stark generalizations about this site and the people on it. Even more confounding is you admit that you in fact stereotype people on many site in a similar fashion, even though you know such generalizations to be false. Why would you continue to engage in behavior you know to be wrong and/or inaccurate?

By the by, I’m not saying this site “peaked” five years ago. I’m’ saying that when Moore’s audience was the largest also happened to be the time when our audience was the largest, which should be a logical connection to make. With Moore’s market drying up we have fewer readers - it’s that simple. Does mean we’ve “peaked”? No, because we continue to strive to put out good, informative articles that address a variety of points. We may not have as many people reading as we did five years ago but our content is still sound. I don’t consider that as “peaking”.

You think it is so bad to be called a right winger? I wouldn’t call that derogatory at all. Hello i was called way worst by people in this thread alone. You don’t seem to have a problem with that. You have a banner on the side for conservative blog advertising. So you must read the daily kos and hufpo every day because they aren’t left wing blogs. 95% of the people who post there are left wing, but you are above calling them left wing blogs because of the 5% who aren’t. Yeah I was disrespectful to that one guy who was calling me an unemployed commie, but to everyone else that added something valuable to the discussion i think I was pretty civil. So you can accept my apology or not, but when i read your post it made me pause, and think “yeah maybe i was being unfair”. Wouldn’t you agree that the people who responded to me were leaning to the right? You can call me a left winger, I won’t cry. But for example i do believe in gun rights (bowling for columbine made some good points but all and all i don’t agree), I am for the removal of the federal reserve, I’m for the death penalty ect ect. But most of my social beliefs are left leaning.

I mean I can look at the side of your page and read:

The Unbearable Wrongness of Moore

* Fiskings
* Outright Lies
* Shooters & Me (Second Amendment issues)
* Moore-ons

Is being called a right winger more derogatory then a liar and a moron?

At least the other two posters can have an intelligent discussion.

So will you attempt to refute or otherwise address the points raised by those two posters or will you only address those posters you feel safe debating?

You think it is so bad to be called a right winger?

You’re missing my point. I didn’t say it was “so bad” to be called a right-winger. I said you were unfairly and inaccurately stereotyping me. I am offended by being stereotyped, not by what you chose to stereotype me. I don’t appreciate generalizations, something you admitted that you make. I would be equally offended if you stereotyped me as a liberal. It’s the action, not the term, that is offensive to me.

Hello i was called way worst by people in this thread alone. You don’t seem to have a problem with that.

I find it hard to have a tremendous amount of sympathy for you when you started you very first comment with a fallacy, continued it with stereotypes and threw in a number of insults. It was you that initiated this discussion and you that make it antagonistic. If you had come here, calmly and respectfully and asked a serious question in a cool and coherent fashion you wouldn’t have been insulted. You would have been debated with respect, which is how we treat those who comment here with differing views point but respectful attitudes. You’ll have to forgive me for not feeling sorry for attacks made on you since it was your words and attitude that prompted that response. Something for you to consider in the future, perhaps?

You have a banner on the side for conservative blog advertising.

Yes. We accept all forms of advertising on this site as we are… wait for it… capitalists. You’re making an assumption about what ads are running of this site now. In the past we’ve had liberal organizations buy ad space here and we ran it just as we have with the conservative ads. We don’t discriminate here. The question is, why do you?

Yeah I was disrespectful to that one guy who was calling me an unemployed commie, but to everyone else that added something valuable to the discussion i think I was pretty civil.

Apparently your definition of “civil” and mine are vastly different as I do not feel you have been civil to me and I have not attacking, demeaned or debassd you in any way.

Wouldn’t you agree that the people who responded to me were leaning to the right?

Does that matter? Does a person’s political views make their opinion more or less valuable? If the person you are debating answers you coolly and logically why would their possible political leanings matter at all? Why the seeming obsession with this subject?

You can call me a left winger, I won’t cry.

The difference between you and me is that I won’t label you as something unless you have already label yourself. I won’t assume anything about you - I’ll only go from what you tell me. In other words, I wouldn’t call you left-wing unless you outright told me you were left-wing. I don’t believe in assuming things about people. Something else for you to consider.

But most of my social beliefs are left leaning.

Almost all of mine are as well. Are you still going to decry me a “right-winger”? I’m not.

Is being called a right winger more derogatory then a liar and a moron?

One more time for those in the back - it’s not the words but the ACTION of stereotyping that bothers me. It’s wrong. You shouldn’t do it, especially when you are being repeatedly told that your stereotype in wrong. That is my problem.

I hope you now have a greater understand of my points. If not I will try to clarify further at a later time.

Also it is usually right wingers who like to falsely accuse people of being commies

Are you aware that the Hollywood Ten were (or had been) in fact Communists?  Are you aware that the first chairman of HUAC was a Democrat?

Other questions:
You are a homeowner—did the gov’t provide your home for you, or did you pay for it using earned income?
You are software engineer—do you do this as charity work, or do you make some sort of profit?  If you could charge more for your services, would you?

Posted by mstewart207 on 10/26/2009 at 03:06 PM (Link to this comment | ) “You are right and I apologize for generalizing. I just looked at the adds on the right hand side of the page and saw things like conservative blog advertising.” There is that and the fact that progressives started calling people who didn’t agree with them both ‘right wing’ and ‘conservative’ as insults (much like the history of ‘neocon’… which was a more recent example). Some people decided to ‘own’ the put downs. Some of us just choose to give people the finger for them. It’s ‘classical’ liberal (re: actual liberal) or libertarian.

Wow donnaK i didn’t know you could fit that many strawmen into one post. I could go point by point and explain anything i said again, but there is no need… You just need to read my post. But let me break it down for you anyway.

I find it hard to have a tremendous amount of sympathy for you when you started you very first comment with a fallacy, continued it with stereotypes and threw in a number of insults. It was you that initiated this discussion and you that make it antagonistic. If you had come here, calmly and respectfully and asked a serious question in a cool and coherent fashion you wouldn’t have been insulted. You would have been debated with respect, which is how we treat those who comment here with differing views point but respectful attitudes. You’ll have to forgive me for not feeling sorry for attacks made on you since it was your words and attitude that prompted that response. Something for you to consider in the future, perhaps?

I didn’t ask for sympathy. I only brought it up to point out your bias. Yes my language was provocative but wasn’t offensive. Maybe my first statement about people just being here to find a torrent was offensive to the content providers of this site. Nothing else was. Unless you are a hopeless political hack you can under stand this country is in BIG FUCKING TROUBLE. People need to be provoked. But lets bicker about name calling and ignore the fact that I stated in my post that China has us by the balls. Can you argue with that?

Does that matter? Does a person’s political views make their opinion more or less valuable? If the person you are debating answers you coolly and logically why would their possible political leanings matter at all? Why the seeming obsession with this subject?

I wasn’t saying that at all. This is a definite straw man. I was just pointing out there is more right wingers here then left wingers. I didn’t say there point wasn’t valid. I think my post clearly show that some right wing ideals perfectly valid.

The difference between you and me is that I won’t label you as something unless you have already label yourself. I won’t assume anything about you - I’ll only go from what you tell me. In other words, I wouldn’t call you left-wing unless you outright told me you were left-wing. I don’t believe in assuming things about people. Something else for you to consider.

You didn’t assume anything about me. But other posters did. You weren’t even in the discussion at that point. Why don’t you tell them that assuming that im an unemployed bum makes an ass out of u ‘m me.

Yes. We accept all forms of advertising on this site as we are… wait for it… capitalists. You’re making an assumption about what ads are running of this site now. In the past we’ve had liberal organizations buy ad space here and we ran it just as we have with the conservative ads. We don’t discriminate here. The question is, why do you?

Where are your liberal adds? wait for it… didn’t mm bail your ass out? (yes that was low… i was ashamed after i typed it. I believe Michael Moore exploited the admins of this site with that bit in sicko).

Almost all of mine are as well. Are you still going to decry me a “right-winger”? I’m not.

I apologized for being short sited. You didn’t accept it. Its easier to demagogue some one if you can’t accept that they admit when they were wrong. If you lean to the left, do you believe in single payer health care? Do you believe these wars we are fight are fucking bullshit? Do you believe that the people who collapsed our economy while getting rich (spraying bottles of crystal all over clubs in Manhattan) are evil? You should understand that the actions these wall street engaged in destroyed countless lives. Economic troubles destroy families. These clean looking well dressed people in wall st did more damage to our country then any cabal of shit kickers from the middle east could ever do.

One more time for those in the back - it’s not the words but the ACTION of stereotyping that bothers me. It’s wrong. You shouldn’t do it, especially when you are being repeatedly told that your stereotype in wrong. That is my problem.

I hope you now have a greater understand of my points. If not I will try to clarify further at a later time.

So that dude who said i was waiting in a bread line with a che chavez t-shirt wasn’t stereotyping because you agree with him. And I didn’t act on anything. There was no action. And you never stereotyped any of those “moore-ons”?

Not from donnaK but the next poster

Other questions:
You are a homeowner—did the gov’t provide your home for you, or did you pay for it using earned income?
You are software engineer—do you do this as charity work, or do you make some sort of profit?  If you could charge more for your services, would you?

I had a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on my house. In the winter or early spring of 2007 i knew the collapse was coming. And all the talking heads on TV that say no one could have seen this coming were full of shit. I cashed in my 401k and bought my house. Yes I have been homeless at periods of my life, and I was gonna make damn sure it never happened again. Any money I set aside for savings was transferred to gold. This isn’t a left or right issue. Our American dollar is in serious trouble. I’m the first natural born American out of a family of Canadian immigrants… when i saw the Canadian dollar out performing the American dollar it was time to invest in commodities. Because growing up, every time i crossed the border to visit family, when you converted your money to Canadian, you always got more back. Until that point. And this was the canary in the coil mine for me.

So we can argue about who called who what name. The point of my post is valid. China owns this country. There is no one to blame but our selves collectively. Social programs didn’t bankrupt us. It was investors, war profiteers, politicians, and other human jackles shitting where they eat. Yeah its easy and convenient, but in the long run you poison the well for your self and everyone around you. We has a people need to get over this petty bullshit and get our asses moving.

*sigh*

Wow donnaK i didn’t know you could fit that many strawmen into one post.

I’m curious… what strawmen did I use? My first comment to you was almost solely about how I found your stereotyping me and the members/authors of this site as right wing offensive. To be fair I did throw that other comment at the end about site traffic, but the meat of my point was about how much I dislike stereotyping and find it offensive. Everything in my last comment to you dealt with those issues. I didn’t move any goalposts or change the argument. There are no strawmen here.

Yes my language was provocative but wasn’t offensive. Maybe my first statement about people just being here to find a torrent was offensive to the content providers of this site. Nothing else was.

I need you to listen to me very carefully as I am getting really, really tired of repeating this point.

I FIND STEREOTYPING OFFENSIVE. I told you in my first comment that I found it offensive. That has been the whole of my point to you - you are offending me by stereotyping not just me but our readership. The fact that you admit to doing it, continue to do it and even realized it bothered me enough to offer a backhanded apology to me shows that you know full well you have been offensive TO ME. You have offended me and you know it. Please do not play dumb with me - it isn’t becoming.

Unless you are a hopeless political hack

Clearly you haven’t learned yet that insulting me and others here will not get you the type of treatment you feel you deserve. How about you stop with the insults and generalizations and offer a clear, honest and openminded comment? If you can’t do that then you will never receive a serious dialogue with anyone here.

I wasn’t saying that at all. This is a definite straw man. I was just pointing out there is more right wingers here then left wingers.

Here you go AGAIN. YOU DON’T KNOW THAT. You are ASSUMING that. You do not know our readership, you do not know our history, and you certainly don’t know me or the authors here. And yet you continue to stereotype us, despite me repeatedly and vociferously telling you that your behavior is offensive.

LEARN PLEASE. Stop with the insults and stereotypes. Stop generalizing. Can you do that or is that your only trick?

Why don’t you tell them that assuming that im an unemployed bum makes an ass out of u ‘m me.

Simple. I did not defend you because I felt your comments were not worth defending. You have been nothing but detracting and demeaning since your first comment here. Why should I insist others be polite to you when you’ve essential walked into my house, spat on my floor, kicked my dog and told me to piss up a rope? Why would anyone respond well to that? You demand respect yet you will give none. That is a double standard I won’t put up with.

Where are your liberal adds? wait for it… didn’t mm bail your ass out? (yes that was low… i was ashamed after i typed it. I believe Michael Moore exploited the admins of this site with that bit in sicko).

And here is where you will lose my sympathy forever. You know that is low, insulting and inaccurate. You admit that you felt shame after you typed it. And yet… you left it in. Give me one good reason why I should listen to anything you have to say after that?

So that dude who said i was waiting in a bread line with a che chavez t-shirt wasn’t stereotyping because you agree with him.

He was being insulting because you were being insulting. You opened the door to it so you don’t really get to complain about it being done to you, do you? And for the record, Rann wasn’t sterotyping you. He didn’t seriously state you were something you were not. He was making fun of you based on the real things you said. You based your opinion of EVERYONE on this site based on the ads we have running at this time. Do you really want to argue this or can you see how wrong you are yet?

And you never stereotyped any of those “moore-ons”?

And this, sir, proves you do not know me or my writing. I do NOT stereotype anyone as a “Moore-on” unless they reveal or label themselves as a Moore fan that fights without reason. I am proud of the way I have always given all commenters the benefit of the doubt and I do not assume or pick fights with people who are no picking fights with me or mine. You may ask anyone here - I am fair and straight with everyone and I take pride in not judging a person before I understand their argument.

With this, I am done with you. You are either incapable of understanding why you have offended me or you simply do not care. Either way, I’ve no time to have this debate with someone who simply will not respect me, my friends, my family, or my beliefs.

This is the best one we’ve had in awhile. I know Donna doesn’t usually get amused by the rampagingly moronic posters like this one we get, but man…

I mean, look at him. He’s making claims of rational debate while simultaneously refusing to engage in debate with various people AND while flinging insults at every turn, he’s calling America a fascist country run by corporations, but I think the real kicker was the “che chavez” bit.

C’mon. “Che Chavez”? He started out saying he wasn’t a Communist, when every post he’s made has equated capitalists with Nazis, and then he says “Che Chavez”? Talk about lost the game.

He’s trolling you, Donna. That’s why the constant “I apologize for stereotyping you, you goose-stepping Republitard” crap, while he talks up the ones he could supposedly debate while only actually engaging anyone who calls him out personally on his bullshit. It’s a total troll tactic, keep up the pretense like you’re going to actually address the issues, but only once you’ve gotten this pesky matter of personal slights and positions resolved.

I mean, c’mon. Look at these posts. “China owns this country”? “human jackles”? “didn’t mm bail your ass out”? Oh, yeah, those are all intelligent topics of debate, totally relevant and on-topic, and totally without the taint of personal insult.

Seriously, this one is either a troll, or we’ve found a stupid Mooretherfucker even dumber than good ol’ Red Star.

(Plus, for someone that claims to think that capitalism and corporations are Hell-sent evils that must be destroyed, he’s awfully obsessed with bragging about his job and his home and his various other possessions, idn’e? Guess he couldn’t quite suppress his attempts to puff himself up to fit his current troll persona.)

(Plus, for someone that claims to think that capitalism and corporations are Hell-sent evils that must be destroyed, he’s awfully obsessed with bragging about his job and his home and his various other possessions, idn’e? Guess he couldn’t quite suppress his attempts to puff himself up to fit his current troll persona.)

You don’t know who i work for. Just like you haven’t known anything so far. You were the one claiming I must be in a bread line at “care-a-lot” or whatever you called it. It must burn you that im not. Do you know anything politics and history? Have you ever read a book? Keep praying… jesus, sarah palin, and santa will come..

I need you to listen to me very carefully as I am getting really, really tired of repeating this point. I FIND STEREOTYPING OFFENSIVE. I told you in my first comment that I found it offensive. That has been the whole of my point to you - you are offending me by stereotyping not just me but our readership. The fact that you admit to doing it, continue to do it and even realized it bothered me enough to offer a backhanded apology to me shows that you know full well you have been offensive TO ME. You have offended me and you know it. Please do not play dumb with me - it isn’t becoming.

Wow it doesn’t take much to get your exercised eh?

Clearly you haven’t learned yet that insulting me and others here will not get you the type of treatment you feel you deserve. How about you stop with the insults and generalizations and offer a clear, honest and openminded comment? If you can’t do that then you will never receive a serious dialogue with anyone here.

Its all about you. I doubt i would receive a serious dialogue with anyone. Here you are ignoring the whole point again. I insulted you its a great injustice how oh how will the world go on? Who gives a fuck the country is falling apart donnaK is insulted. Lets drop everything and make this right.

Here you go AGAIN. YOU DON’T KNOW THAT. You are ASSUMING that. You do not know our readership, you do not know our history, and you certainly don’t know me or the authors here. And yet you continue to stereotype us, despite me repeatedly and vociferously telling you that your behavior is offensive. LEARN PLEASE. Stop with the insults and stereotypes. Stop generalizing. Can you do that or is that your only trick?

Who here believes in socialized medicine, unions, anti-war ideals, and not rewarding people who destroyed our economy? Speak up donnaK says there is a ton of you. Again being right wing is an insult? What a shitty situation they (meaning not you because your an obvious lefty from your posts) find them selves in.

And here is where you will lose my sympathy forever. You know that is low, insulting and inaccurate. You admit that you felt shame after you typed it. And yet… you left it in. Give me one good reason why I should listen to anything you have to say after that?

You haven’t read anything so far so whats this difference? You took the money didn’t ya? Why don’t you return it and tell Michael Moore to go fuck him self?

He was being insulting because you were being insulting. You opened the door to it so you don’t really get to complain about it being done to you, do you? And for the record, Rann wasn’t sterotyping you. He didn’t seriously state you were something you were not. He was making fun of you based on the real things you said. You based your opinion of EVERYONE on this site based on the ads we have running at this time. Do you really want to argue this or can you see how wrong you are yet?

That’s strange, you’re certainly stupid enough to be one. Perhaps you’re simply a liar instead?

You call that “so much anger”? I wasn’t aware that they had internet connections in Care-A-Lot… well, okay, I wasn’t aware they had jobless losers in Che T-shirts in Care-A-Lot either, shows what those damn bears get for putting in low-rent housing. (Also, you do realize that you whined about me calling you stupid and said it invalidated any point I might have, and then spent five times as long calling me stupid?)

Just learn to read.

And this, sir, proves you do not know me or my writing. I do NOT stereotype anyone as a “Moore-on” unless they reveal or label themselves as a Moore fan that fights without reason. I am proud of the way I have always given all commenters the benefit of the doubt and I do not assume or pick fights with people who are no picking fights with me or mine. You may ask anyone here - I am fair and straight with everyone and I take pride in not judging a person before I understand their argument. With this, I am done with you. You are either incapable of understanding why you have offended me or you simply do not care. Either way, I’ve no time to have this debate with someone who simply will not respect me, my friends, my family, or my beliefs.

You said your self you didn’t want to argue about the true substance of the argument. So obviously you cared more about your straw man argument that you were offended by being called a right winger. You are done with me because you have no rational argument. Just keep playing the victim. It doesn’t mean china owns any less of your house no matter how much of a baby you are.

And still mstewart207 refuses to actually address either of the posters he said had good points to refute or otherwise engage them in real debate.

Perhaps he has no answer to their points?

Perhaps with the first poster who i said had good points, I agree with his statement about the fed. And the rest of it is up for debate.

The next poster said that china is a fascist country not a communist country. I can buy it, but i also answered back that America is a fascist country too. But never mind whats happened to this country… donnaK is offended and we need to rectify this at once.

Who’d yall vote for? I wana know. Donnak says there is a bunch of lefties here… I want to hear from you. I only say that because, just because fox says they are “fair and balanced” doesn’t necessarily make it fucking so.

BTW When Micheal Moore talks about Christianized medicine and all that bull shit he sounds like a fucking moron. Some times I agree with the guy sometimes I don’t. When he talks about replacing capitalism with democracy it sounds stupid. Because that’s completely apples and oranges. Can we at least agree on that?

Incoming ban in 3, 2, 1…

I know just like hanity and limbaugh “CUT HIS MIC OFF!!!” But the admins would know im no troll really, even if they dismiss me as one. I used my real name and e-mail address… But if you wana purify your own echo chamber that’s up to you.

Incoming ban in 3, 2, 1…

LOL… no, no banning yet, I think, although I’m sure he thinks he’s tried hard enough to go down in the Banned Hall of Fame. I’ll even let that one Sicko reference through, just because I, like you, find this one fairly amusing. ;p

I *know* he’s trolling me, Rann. Hell, I play a troll in WOW - I know them when I see them. ;) But, as I said, troll or not, I stand by my belief to give the opposition a fair chance to make their point… unless of course they are too gravely insulting in the process. You never know - we’ve managed to change some minds ‘round these parts before, never know when it could happen again.

I believe he’s made all my points for me better than I ever could, so I’ll leave what’s left of him for you boys to play. Do you think he even realized what kind of hole he was digging himself the whole time, or do you think that only now is it hitting him what’s happened? ;)

*wanders off whistling*

I play wow too :) I’m an orc shammy. I play magic-wow.com. Btw you had no point.

{edit}

I got to say it does show an amount of class to not kick me. I wasn’t trying to be kicked or banned. My initial question was one that was screamed at my tv many times while watching fox news. I could have taken to any blog. But I was here looking for a torrent link to capitalism: a love story.

I guess I can’t keep my mouth shut but i must point out some more issues. At first I was pegged as a welfare case commie. Now I’m a hypocrite because this is not the case. Its like the john lennon song “they hate you if you’re clever and they despise a fool”. No matter what I’ll have health care. I’ll be fine. I have prepared for the worst. A lot of people who are close to me haven’t. And i know some of you reading this haven’t. I don’t mind paying more taxes so other people can see a doctor or have a safe place to sleep, and something good to eat. Its better for society if people aren’t suffering. And I think there is some common ground between us.

Some of you who are on the right wing may say “so what? if you didn’t earn it you don’t deserve it”. Well we all have to share the same planet and same community. The violence and abhorrent behavior on American streets is the result of scarcity. Yes you can be a billionaire and be happy on the house on the hill. But who’s going to protect your wealth? The socialized police force? I don’t care, if my family is going hungry and you look like you have something, i’m coming to get it you dig? Yes you can arm your self to the teeth. But it won’t stop me. At that point my stomach is growling and my wife is crying.

The first poster who replied to my comment made an excellent point. The fed takes a good percentage of your tax dollars to pay a private central bank. We piss away billions every month to fight wars in some shit hole where the people are ungrateful about what we are trying to do. We could feed and insure the ones among us who can’t do for them selves. (everyone is not created equal, and some people never had the chance that you and I may have had) A good nation doesn’t stomp their own! And that’s what it seems like we are doing more and more. I voted for obama, but hes a catastrophic disappointment. But what choice did I have? Vote for a cooperate cock sucker (pardon) like obama, or vote for sarah palin. We need more political parties in this country. Lewis black said it best to paraphrase “our two party system is just a bowl of shit looking at its self in the mirror”.

Incoming ban in 3, 2, 1…

Wrong again! What else is new?

Do you think he even realized what kind of hole he was digging himself the whole time, or do you think that only now is it hitting him what’s happened? ;)

Hard to tell. I mean, it’s using a lot of tried and true troll tactics fairly masterfully, but I’ve seen them stumble into those completely by accident. It does seem pretty earnest, after all… at some point, mental defects become indistinguishable from trolling.

But it does seem to dig for reactions when we leave it alone for long enough. It did come back to try having another dig at me over an hour after it had made its last post, which it had to expand to avoid being too obvious as just another dig on its own.

If you wanna keep playing with it, that’s cool, too, it does make your points for ya pretty well. X) I did mention that ones like it are pretty rare.

I don’t mind paying more taxes

I certainly do.  I have a severe problem with the government taking money that I have earned for the cause of the day when it is clear that they have not, cannot and will not demonstrate that they have any fiscal responsibility at all.  It is hypocritical for the government and those who support the current health care legislation to say “Americans need to tighten their belts” and then go on massive spending sprees.

You want more taxes to pay for health care. 

There is currently somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 billion dollars in waste in the US health care system. 

Over $200 billion of that is fraud.  The government is unwilling or unable to address the fraud in the system, yet one must wonder how many people could receive health care with $200 billion?

Procedures from doctors that practice “protective medicine” that helps insulate them from lawsuits and malpractice claims adds another $200 - $300 billion in waste, yet none of the current bills in the Congress have anything in it about tort reform.  How many people do you think we could have health care for with that additional $200 - $300 billion?  (And in case you are counting, that is now a total of $400 - $500 billion in waste and unnecessary expenditures.)

Finally, add to that the roughly $150 billion in administrative inefficiency and redundant paperwork.

That’s $550 - $650 BILLION in waste and fraud in the health care system right now that is not being addressed. 

The solution being offered is “let’s tax people more.”

So yes, I do object to higher taxes for health care because it does not address the underlying issues.  It is foolish to try to say that the government, which has no motive to be effective or efficient, will suddenly start spending all these new tax dollars any more efficiently then they have in the past.

Its better for society if people aren’t suffering.

There are always people suffering.  There is no way to end suffering.  The question therefore becomes who is better to address the suffering?  The people?  Or the government?

The violence and abhorrent behavior on American streets is the result of scarcity.

Scarcity of what?  Food?  Nope.  Housing?  Not really.  Even if you want to say that there is a housing shortage, one only need look at “government housing” to see the abject failure of the government’s involvement.

The socialized police force?

Enforcing the laws enacted by those who favor socialism?

you look like you have something, i’m coming to get it you dig?

Why?  Because you feel entitled to that which I have worked for?  You feel that you have a right to rob, steal, maim, and murder because you have made choices that resulted in where you are now?

(everyone is not created equal, and some people never had the chance that you and I may have had

We are all created equal and that has nothing to do with the opportunities one may or may not have.  There are too many people in this country that have pulled themselves up their surroundings and circumstances to even argue that people must remain where they are socially and economically.

A good nation doesn’t stomp their own!

Okay, so we agree that the laws that are oppressive, stiffle innovation, and that put unfair and undue burdens on businesses and individuals are wrong.

So why do you seem to be advocating for more regulations, more taxes and more stomping?

So you own a home and continue to hold your job due to capitalism, not socialism?  Doesn’t that go against some of your pinko commie beliefs?

...Wait, that was stereotyping.  And I realize I was wrong to say that, and that it can’t possibly deepen any meaningful conversation, but I’m going to leave it there anyway because it makes me feel superior and because I don’t know how to use the “Delete” key.

P.S.  I know you really REALLY want to talk about China, but that’s not the topic at hand, and I don’t feel like discussing it anyway.  Partly because that’s not the topic at hand, but mostly because that’s what you want to talk about.  I’d much rather address some of your other statements, like your continuing reference to Jesus/Sarah Palin/Santa.

You want more taxes to pay for health care. There is currently somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 billion dollars in waste in the US health care system. Over $200 billion of that is fraud. The government is unwilling or unable to address the fraud in the system, yet one must wonder how many people could receive health care with $200 billion? Procedures from doctors that practice “protective medicine” that helps insulate them from lawsuits and malpractice claims adds another $200 - $300 billion in waste, yet none of the current bills in the Congress have anything in it about tort reform. How many people do you think we could have health care for with that additional $200 - $300 billion? (And in case you are counting, that is now a total of $400 - $500 billion in waste and unnecessary expenditures.) Finally, add to that the roughly $150 billion in administrative inefficiency and redundant paperwork. That’s $550 - $650 BILLION in waste and fraud in the health care system right now that is not being addressed. The solution being offered is “let’s tax people more.”

A single payer system could fix this. All of the waste and fraud is simply the fall out of our for profit health care system. A lot of the other countries that do this do not have nearly have as much overhead in their system. I do believe there should be tort reform because of the costs from malpractice law suits is a huge hole in the sinking ship. Yes I agree this is a big problem. At the end of the day a single payer system would be cheaper. This health care bill they are trying to pass now is a fucking boondoggle. I would rather them not spend the 800 billion and just do nothing, versus what they are trying to do. This is why I say Obama = fail.

Scarcity of what? Food? Nope. Housing? Not really. Even if you want to say that there is a housing shortage, one only need look at “government housing” to see the abject failure of the government’s involvement.

$$$

Its easy for you to say that government housing is an abject failure. I know plenty of people that would be out on there ass if it wasn’t for section 8 and other subsidies. Do you think its better of society if we let these people live on the streets? 

Enforcing the laws enacted by those who favor socialism?

No. You pay for the police force with your tax dollars. Its socialized. Just like the roads, public schools, and libraries.

Why? Because you feel entitled to that which I have worked for? You feel that you have a right to rob, steal, maim, and murder because you have made choices that resulted in where you are now?

Be that as it may, it still won’t change the fact. Its straight up survival. It happens all the time. Who’s gonna protect you? The public police force. You talk about bad choices, do you think people choose to get cancer, and be bankrupted from medical bills? Or do people choose to have their 401k’s wiped out because some greedy prick bankers decided to play games on wall st? Those are the people who are stealing. Its funny in this country a crack head robs a 7/11 for 150 dollars and gets 10 years in jail. Some greed head investors collapse the economy and get a 10 million dollar bonus. Its still stealing even if you are wearing a suit and a tie.

And I have to ask why do these more socialist western European countries have less crime? Maybe its less dog eat dog, and everyone’s not pinned against the wall to survive?

We are all created equal and that has nothing to do with the opportunities one may or may not have. There are too many people in this country that have pulled themselves up their surroundings and circumstances to even argue that people must remain where they are socially and economically.

So someone born with downs syndrome, or any other kind of physical mental sickness has just as much chance as someone born healthy? Besides there have been numerous economic studies that say that America is comparable to a third world country in terms of people being able to work there way up. People might have been able to get a head in the 50’s and 60’s, but those days are over. Someone graduating high school in 1965 was able to go out and get a job and merry there high school sweet heart and live decently. Now both parents have to work, and to live comfortably your going to need a bachelors degree. And plus the fact during the Eisenhower administration taxes on the top bracket were at 90%.

So why do you seem to be advocating for more regulations, more taxes and more stomping?

How come every time regulations are relaxed we have a collapse? Was it too much regulations that caused the great depression? I mean because once we got some regulations, we went almost 80 years with out a major collapse. Are you against child labor regulations, and work place safety regulations? We tried it your way under Bush and shit hit the fan. Why would you keep trying the same thing and expect different results?

I’d much rather address some of your other statements, like your continuing reference to Jesus/Sarah Palin/Santa.

Simple man, jesus and santa are the same guy, and sarah palin is a joke.

A single payer system could fix this.

As we have seen with the waste in Medicare and Medicaid, your assertion is factually wrong.

I know plenty of people that would be out on there ass if it wasn’t for section 8 and other subsidies.

And those housing units are generally cesspools of mismanagement, deterioration and crime.  The section 8 subsidy that does work is when the government stays out of the way of the day to day management of rentals.  Their controlling involvement is never a good thing.

You talk about bad choices, do you think people choose to get cancer, and be bankrupted from medical bills?

The number of people “bankrupted” from medical bills is grossly overstated and often comes from a choices made earlier.

And I have to ask why do these more socialist western European countries have less crime?

Because they don’t.  The reporting systems in socialized countries are different.  The general idea is that if a law enforcement agency doesn’t report that a crime happened, it didn’t happen.  England just went through this type of scandal were crimes were underreported by the police. 

So someone born with downs syndrome, or any other kind of physical mental sickness has just as much chance as someone born healthy?

That has nothing to do with being born equal.  I suspect you know that and are simply unwilling to admit the flaw in your argument.

How come every time regulations are relaxed we have a collapse?

The current collapse happened because, in great part of overregulation of the housing market.  Your premise is factually wrong.

Are you against child labor regulations, and work place safety regulations?

Please see the CPSIA for your response.  This is a regulation that has no basis in reality, but is costing hundreds of small companies to go out of business, thousands to lose their jobs, and billions of lost tax revenues.  We are about to do the same thing with food.  Cap and trade is on the way as well.

Why would you keep trying the same thing and expect different results?

In 2003 the US Treasury took in more dollars (real and adjusted) than in the history of the country.  The Congress began to spend like drunken sailors, and ignored the warning signs that the housing market and credit market was under capitalized.  Yet they kept the regulations on community investment in place.  We did learn something under Bush.  We learned that Congress cannot control the economy, but they can destroy it.

So why are you advocating a program that will do the same thing?

Its easy for you to say that government housing is an abject failure.

FWIW, the U.N. just announced yesterday that our housing is an abject failure.  (Literally, that we have a “crisis.") Not that I have that much respect for the U.N.

I was just popping in to look into the stuff Donna had said about Moore trying to silence this site (or maybe her and Jim personally, not sure).  But I read this first.

*sigh* These rebutals?  This is what constitutes ‘brilliance’ around here lately?  Wha happened?  Jim needs to post more, and man, do I miss paratroopers long well thought out posts. 

All good things… I guess.

up4debate:

It’s us (well, Jim) personally, FWIW.

Not sure what you’d have us do right about now. Moore’s movie left theaters in CT within three weeks. THREE WEEKS. I never got a chance to see it. And it’s wasn’t pirated, so I have to wait for the DVD to see it. MikeS was out of the country and didn’t get to see it either. Moore has given us plenty to talk about with his letters and interviews, which is what we’ve been doing. This thread turned into a farce quickly because of our new plaything, but that was just quick fun. There’s not much to write about ATM. MikeS has been writing brilliant stuff and we have some great new commenters like gitarcarver that keep this place hopping. I’m sad too for not having Lee or Para and that Jim is far too busy to spend much time here, but them’s the breaks. I’m sorry you feel the quality of the posting here is down and if you have suggestions I’m ready to listen.

I dont want to derail the thread, but do you have any links on this?  I was lookin, couldnt find em.

Im not asking you to do anything, for real.  I spent a lot of time here, and posted a TON, so I do kinda miss it sometimes.  I guess its just my own personal problem.  You post here enough, after a while, you find you are just repeating yourself.  It got to the point where I was just posting quick little sarcastic jabs, out of frustration and not feeling like repeating what I may have said in a past post.  I pretty much turned into a bizaro-Rann.  It took Jim calling me out on it before I even realised it.

I dont know.  Im very appreciative to this site for the things Ive learned from it over the years, its changed my opinions on some issues (gun control etc...), just by making me think more about them.  I just didnt think the article here was particularly ‘brilliant’.  Kinda sounded like all the quick little jabs I was guilty of (and some of them are just twisting his words tbh). 

Politics most of the time is more like rooting for your favourite sports team, regardless of how good the current atheletes on the team are.  The ops here are a departure from that (not so much the posters), which is refreshing.  I think the most anyone could ask, is to stay that way.  And ay, its Moorewatch, but I dont think you have to stay on the topic of Moore.  No reason to let his career 100% dictate the discussions here.

Haha, personally, I would have LOVED to of seen a discussion on here about the whole online poker thing, and how the law was thrown into the port security bill at the last minute.  Even if people dont play, I cant believe freedom loving, personal responsibility lovin Americans arent completely outraged by it.

btw… personal thanks for your honesty in the other thread.  very very big of you, and again, rare around here.

And ay, its Moorewatch, but I dont think you have to stay on the topic of Moore.  No reason to let his career 100% dictate the discussions here.

Er, why? The various people associated with this blog have their own political blogs they post on, for the most part. A good number of Moorewatch main page posters also post on Right Thoughts.

Basically, it’s Moorewatch. It’s still about Moore, and it should be. There are probably more political blogs out there than there are people who vote, and turning this place into yet another one wouldn’t really succeed in doing anything but creating another mostly-empty politiblog, just that this one would have a really bad name to go with it since it wasn’t about smacking down Michael Moore anymore.

And if you want to bring up political topics of your own, there’s nothing stopping you from making your own politiblog and soliciting opinions and discussions about whatever subjects you want, rather than coming here and grumbling about a narrow focus and throwing out other topics in the discussion area.

You could call it “A Bridge, Eh”! With the subtitle “A Canadian trolls Americans for their opinions”. You would have three readers and one spambot who would briefly achieve sentience and discover that it had fallen in love with your motherboard, but after .1593 milliseconds of trying (many years to its mind) realize that the MB would never achieve sentience and commit cybersuicide. Two years later, a data center fire would consume the server, leaving your posts unrecoverable. You would take the day off of work to drink and play World of Warcraft 2, and then register for a livejournal the next day so that no one would miss out on your review of the new fusion band Linkin Korntallica. Twelve years later you would pass away of an aggravated urinary tract infection that had left you bedridden for three months, attended only by a large black nurse named Elmer due to the suddenness of your passing. He would cry briefly, and then request reassignment to the next day.

... No, I don’t know why, either, other than that I needed to eat up about ten minutes of end-of-day worktime.

I have to agree with Rann here - this is not and has never been a political site. That’s not its purpose or intention. The job of Moorewatch is to, well, watch Michael Moore, to fact-check his assertions, to debunk his claims and to discuss and deconstruct his work. The only place other politics has here is when they intersect with Moore’s work. For example, we had many healthy and lengthy debates about different aspects of varying health care systems during the release of Sicko. We discussed a lot of about gun control in the BFC days. Political discussion is and always has been reigned in to cover only topics that directly relate to Moore’s work. The problem, IMHO, with this movie is that Moore’s opinions are SO all over the road (and in many places nonsensical) that it’s hard to really discuss them. Add in to that the fact that the movie literally vanished before we could see it and, well, we have what we have.

I never want to see this site turn into a political site. It would be a disservice to the many diverse views of the populace here to pigeonhole them into one political “ideal”. I’m proud to see liberals, conservatives, centrists, libertarians, and apolitical people all here, all welcome and ready to talk about one thing. I would never want that to change.

As for the first thing, can we please drop it here? There’s a reason we don’t talk about it much. I would appreciate it a lot.

btw… personal thanks for your honesty in the other thread.  very very big of you, and again, rare around here.

Dude, you know me enough to know that when I’m wrong I admit it and own up to it. I was wrong so I retract my anger and my statements. It’s the right thing to do.

Good points Donna.  Was just a suggestion, but I guess thats what the forums are for.  Ill keep checkin back then.  And ya, Mike S’s stuff is pretty good.

As for the first thing… I wasnt tryin to get into it, or explore it here.  Your response to me in another thread made it seem like I (everyone on here) was aware, so I was just lookin for links.

You work Rann?  Kinda got the impression you were typin that with one hand and gettin busy with the other.  :D

up4:

Thanks for the understanding. I don’t mind talking about it (transparency and all that), but bringing that subject up means we get SO many more death threats and horrible hate mails that honestly sometimes get so vile I just want to curl into a ball and cry. It’s bad enough with the new movie out, and to be frank I just don’t have the stomach to deal with any more than we already have. People can be so extraordinarily cruel it honestly boggles my mind sometimes. So, that’s all this is. Just an attempt to retain some level of sanity. I do appreciate your understanding. :)

As we have seen with the waste in Medicare and Medicaid, your assertion is factually wrong.

So there is fraud and waste in every system. You don’t think there is any fraud and waste in private insurance pools? The fact remains that medicare has lower overhead then the private insurance. How much of the premiums that you pay for private insurance actually goes towards medicine? How much goes to advertisements, buying politicians and profit? If there is fraud and waste, fix the loopholes.

And those housing units are generally cesspools of mismanagement, deterioration and crime.  The section 8 subsidy that does work is when the government stays out of the way of the day to day management of rentals.  Their controlling involvement is never a good thing.

Be that as it may, but I’ll have to give the same argument. Fix the problems and clean it up. The whole system doesn’t need to be scraped. I think its easy to point to out corruption and waste in these big government programs. Maybe in a lot of cases politicians don’t want to see a fix. Either they are corrupt and are benefiting from these sorts of programs, and or if they are conservative, they don’t want to fix a program so it would work. Conservatives run on the premise that big government sucks, then they get elected and prove it.

The number of people “bankrupted” from medical bills is grossly overstated and often comes from a choices made earlier.

I don’t believe this is accurate at all? Do you know anyone who has been effected? My brother is a small business owner and was diagnosed with non Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Medical bills are a bitch. Do you think anyone will insure him? He makes a 6 figure income but lives in poverty. He use to have 4 or 5 guys working for him at any given time. Now he and his wife do all the work them selves and don’t hire anyone. Now that is just a micro example of lack of health care hurting the job market.

Because they don’t.  The reporting systems in socialized countries are different.  The general idea is that if a law enforcement agency doesn’t report that a crime happened, it didn’t happen.  England just went through this type of scandal were crimes were underreported by the police.

So Sweden and Britain have as many murders and violent crimes per year as US?

That has nothing to do with being born equal.  I suspect you know that and are simply unwilling to admit the flaw in your argument.

No it has everything to do with it. While downs syndrome might be an extreme case, there are varying degrees of circumstances. Point being, some people just can’t hack it in society. As fellow human beings we have to take care of those who are worst off amongst us. Even if it is there own fault.

Please see the CPSIA for your response.  This is a regulation that has no basis in reality, but is costing hundreds of small companies to go out of business, thousands to lose their jobs, and billions of lost tax revenues.  We are about to do the same thing with food.  Cap and trade is on the way as well.

So there are bad regulations and good regulations. What about asbestos in work places? It might cost a company an awful amount of money to clean up an old building. Get my point? We can go tit for tat, for every good regulation there may be a regulation that is an asinine bureaucratic nightmare. Fine then go through everything on a case by case basis and find out what works. Just blindly fallowing an ideology that says all regulations are bad is crazy. Like my previous answers on medicare and government housing, you can always point to laws and programs that aren’t perfect. You can either fix what is wrong or you can use these points to demagogue it to death so nothing ever gets solved.

In 2003 the US Treasury took in more dollars (real and adjusted) than in the history of the country.  The Congress began to spend like drunken sailors, and ignored the warning signs that the housing market and credit market was under capitalized.  Yet they kept the regulations on community investment in place.  We did learn something under Bush.  We learned that Congress cannot control the economy, but they can destroy it.

First of all, I agree with congress spending being out of control under Bush or anyone else. And lets not forget these bullshit wars that were fought for no fucking reason. (tell me what our troops are doing in Afghanistan except guarding poppy fields for Mohammad Karzi’s brother?) If it were up to me health care would be the only thing that money was spent on. No bullshit wars, no tax cuts for billionaires, no bank bailouts, and no stimulus (good god what a boondoggle).

Ultimately the credit markets got out of control because lending banks and investment banks were allowed to be one entity, along with a whole slew of other regulations that were removed at the end of the Clinton admin. Also it is fair to say, the regulations there were in place weren’t enforced. A person maybe generous, smart, altruistic. But people on the other hand are greedy, dumb, selfish, and they can’t be trust to the right thing. They have to be forced to.

Its funny how when conservatives are in power, its all “god bless America”, “love it or leave”, and :insert random garbage from a Toby Keith song:. But the second a democrat gets elected that flag waving fervor turns into :best Jeremiah Wright impression: “na na na, not god bless America, goddam America”.

For example, we had many healthy and lengthy debates about different aspects of varying health care systems during the release of Sicko.

Oh just a side note, I heard an interview with Wendel Potter, a former Cigna marketing executive. He was talking about how when sicko came out, it was his job to go through the movie and create all the talking points for demagogues to blast Michale Moore. Since then he has turned whistle blower, and has admitted that mm had it exactly right in sicko. I wonder how many of his talking points were regurgitated on this site as fact?

Its also pretty ironic that there are advertisements on this site for f/911 and sicko. They’re right next to the sleazy all natural cancer curing pills for 29.95 a bottle. I guess some people would take money for anybody.

Kinda got the impression you were typin that with one hand and gettin busy with the other. :D

Now now, I know my American manliness is overwhelming to a Canadian such as yourself, but please, I don’t need to be informed of your fantasies, good sir.

By the by, another issue with turning this into a political forum is a matter of credibility. While we’re not getting any anyway from people of a certain leaning (and never would), if we let ourselves become a political site, it’s much too easy to brush us off as “Just a bunch of conservatards, of course they hate Michael Moore, he of the Liberal Pantheon of Olympus”. If we focus on Moore, it’s more that we’re focused on him because of him and how he does things… of course, it doesn’t stop most of his defenders from still brushing us off as “just a bunch of conservatards”, but apparently moral victories are still some kind of victories. Or something.