So did Colmes try arguing in Moore’s favor?

This is an appropriate thread to once again plug The Real Cuba.com.  A great site about Cuban healthcare, housing, lifestyles and even some Che thrown in for good measure.

The real shame is that, as damning as these videos are and as concrete as the evidence is for the truth about socialized medicine, the entire story is simply going to be summarily dismissed by many simply because it appeared on Fox.

Sean Hannity could narrate a story about the holocaust, and the MoveOn crowd would immediately start making claims that it must have been a hoax, if Hannity/Fox believe it happened.

Anyone else find this recently popular sentiment, and the reactionary brain-dead process behind it more than a little frustrating and depressing?

People are more interested in being “right” than they are in solving problems.

The real shame is that, as damning as these videos are and as concrete as the evidence is for the truth about socialized medicine, the entire story is simply going to be summarily dismissed by many simply because it appeared on Fox.

You are, of course, correct. And this is why we all need to keep telling these stories over and over and over again until people finally begin to listen. This is why it is so important that we get as many blogs and sites to link to or put up this story and video as we can. The more people that hear the truth about the real Cuba, the less they will be able to deny it.

Although Moore opened this can of worms with his disgusting trek through Castro’s Cuba in “Sicko”, this issue is far bigger than Moore. This is about the Cuban people and their fight for freedom and care within their own country. As long as the American public continues to perceive Cuba as being a paradise, Castro as being a benevolent ruler, the Cuban medical system as being wonderful, the Cuban economic conditions fair, and the freedom of the people in tact, the suffering of the Cuban people will continue. And every time someone as influential as Michael Moore reinforces that false image of a glorious Cuba, the fight to reveal the truth about Cuba falters.

Yes, this report may be dismissed for a number of reasons. It was on Fox. It isn’t what Michael Moore said. It couldn’t *really* be that bad. But it’s out there now. The truth about the real Cuba was seen on American television for the first time. That’s huge, and it needs to be reinforced and repeated until people start to pay attention.

Michael Moore did not show the real Cuba. This is the real Cuba. And I’m going to keep saying it until more people start to hear me. I hope you will too.

Hannity and Colmes are a fascist version of Laurel and Hardy, and can’t be either taken seriously or trusted, to present an unbiased view of anything, from Cuba to the colour of their underwear. It would be easy to show the worst parts of American health care, or poverty, or treatment of gays, and left thinking that the United States is some inbred village of violent thugs and uncaring illiterates. Reinaldo Arenas is a part of Cuban history, an ugly part undoubtedly, the gay scene in Cuba, especially in Havana is starting to gain recognition and acceptance today. If Arenas had the courage to face his illness and somehow survived it, he may still carry extreme bitterness for his treatment in Cuba, but I am also sure his views on gay persecution would be entirely radicalised.

Castro apologists disgust me. Red Star, I can’t even fathom how you sleep at night if you have a conscience.  Hannity and/or Colmes WERE NOT THE INVESTIGATORS.  They simply had the balls to air the footage ABC was afraid to air for fear of their Cuban reporters being imprisoned.

I’ll bet the impact of what I just said to you doesn’t even register.

I am sorry you find me disgusting Jim, unfortunately there is very little I can do about that. As I said however, it would be very easy to capture the worst parts of American life on video and be left with the perception that America is a bigoted backwater. As for homophobia, I look forward to the day America has an openly Gay President, or for that matter one of colour, indigenous or female. Anything that backs Hannity and Colmes’ distorted and twisted view of things will be seized upon by those two low lives. It is also my belief that America has its fair share of political prisoners, just offshore where the rules of ‘fairness and justice’ America holds so dear do not apply. Two Australian’s were held there for a number of years without charge, and without rights. One was eventually released without charge, but not without serious mistreatment, including torture, Mamdouh Habib. The other, David Hicks was held for five years, again without charge, when finally released it was determined that he should only serve nineteen months over a trivial matter, a charge was laid against him on release that didn’t even exist in law at the time of his arrest. So no, what you wrote most certainly does not register with me, just as what I have written here will not register with you, or anyone else who reads it on this forum, if my guess is right.

jim, he’s also got a hard-on for che.  just check out the forums.

Buzz, would that be a homophobic statement?

No it wouldn’t.  I don’t care about your love of men.  I do however find something extremely wrong for your love of a homophobic bigoted totalitarian murderer.

I always try to look for the best in people, I’m sure if I dug deep enough I may even be able to find something decent about the Bush family, it may take a lot of digging though. :0)

That tells me everything about you, Red Star. Dictatorial murderers and thugs are to be worshiped, and you can’t find anything good about Bush without digging deep.

Yeah, you’re a REAL humanitarian. So filled with goodness and compassion.

unfortunately there is very little I can do about that.

You could stop being an apologist for dictatorial murderers and the thugs they hire to kill “fags” and dissidents, for one.

artmonkey
The real shame is that, as damning as these videos are and as concrete as the evidence is for the truth about socialized medicine, the entire story is simply going to be summarily dismissed by many simply because it appeared on Fox.

red star
Hannity and Colmes are a fascist version of Laurel and Hardy, and can’t be either taken seriously or trusted, to present an unbiased view of anything, from Cuba to the colour of their underwear.

It took three, count ‘em, three replies for artmonkey’s prophecy to be fulfilled.  The loonatic left is so accommodating…

Reinaldo Arenas is a part of Cuban history, an ugly part undoubtedly, the gay scene in Cuba, especially in Havana is starting to gain recognition and acceptance today. If Arenas had the courage to face his illness and somehow survived it, he may still carry extreme bitterness for his treatment in Cuba, but I am also sure his views on gay persecution would be entirely radicalised.

Do not DARE to speak about Reinaldo Arenas, sir, until you are considerably more educated on the subject. Reinaldo Arenas had more courage than either you or I could imagine. He suffered endlessly from the moment of his birth to his horrific death, and yet throughout it all, from the persecutions to the imprisonment to the exile to the illness that claimed his life, he managed to not only write an astonishing collection of literature but used his voice and position to do everything in his power to fight against Castro and his regime.

Reinaldo Arenas didn’t lack the courage to “face his illness”. He was dying; not slowly, but with incredible rapidity. At the time of his death he was completely crippled by AIDS, cancer, pneumonia, and a host of infections. He had not the strength to hold a pen or type. He barely had the strength to dictate. Reinaldo’s death was in 1990, sir. In 1990 there was no magic cocktail, no treatment, nothing for Reinaldo to do but fade away into dust. In fact, he fought through several near-death diseases and infections for years - he was lucky to have lived as long as he did. Had he not taken his life he would have been dead within months anyway. He chose to die with dignity and with the little strength he had left.

As for your analysis that Reinaldo’s “views on gay persecution would be entirely radicalised”, you could not be more mistaken if you tried. Do you know anything about Reinaldo Arenas, sir? Do you understand the passion he has about the persecution of gays? Do you understand how much hatred he had for how he, his friends, and the entire gay community was, quite literally, destroyed by the hands of Castro? You need to do some serious research on Reinaldo Arenas before making such claims, and I suggest you start right here. Read this, in its entirety, and then you may try to have a dialogue about Reinaldo Arenas. Until then, sir, you owe this great man an apology for smearing his name with your insinuations and your uneducated opinions. And you owe the Cuban people and apology for your refusal to acknowledge the tremendous suffering they have and continue to endure under the reign of Castro.

I will second my husband’s motion. You, sir, disgust me. Educate yourself before you speak further on this subject. You look the fool enough as it is.

And thanks to Red Star, we’ve already strayed from the central theme of Donna’s post. The point that Donna, and the footage, is trying to make is that Michael Moore lied about the state of health care in Cuba. Even if there’s only ONE hospital like that in Cuba, it means that some Cuban people are being treated extremely badly, while others are treated well.

The point is that Moore was incorrect when he extolled the virtues of Cuban health care. Even if it’s only a single hospital that allows insects to crawl on bedridden patients, it is still a glaring example of inequality in an ostensibly egalitarian society.

Now, if Red Star has some footage of his own that disproves the footage proivded by FOX, I invite him to show it to us.

If not, he might want to keep his voice down a bit.

Red Star --

it would be very easy to capture the worst parts of American life on video and be left with the perception that America is a bigoted backwater.

Yes, that’s something Moore does in virtually every one of his movies, and in fact by most liberal posts on this site.  Why then do you have a problem with that microscope being turned on another country?  Do you in fact believe the footage from H&C;to be faked?

Hannity and Colmes are a fascist version of Laurel and Hardy, and can’t be either taken seriously or trusted, to present an unbiased view of anything, from Cuba to the colour of their underwear. It would be easy to show the worst parts of American health care, or poverty, or treatment of gays, and left thinking that the United States is some inbred village of violent thugs and uncaring illiterates. Reinaldo Arenas is a part of Cuban history, an ugly part undoubtedly, the gay scene in Cuba, especially in Havana is starting to gain recognition and acceptance today. If Arenas had the courage to face his illness and somehow survived it, he may still carry extreme bitterness for his treatment in Cuba, but I am also sure his views on gay persecution would be entirely radicalised.

Oh, I get it now . . . we just take extreme views of totalitarian Marxists. You know, like there isn’t a black market for medical care in Cuba because the government cannot deliver on its promises .

Honestly, Red Star, ignorance is NOT a redeeming quality even though you continue to display yours with self-righteous pride.

I will try to address the posts directed to me one at a time, and as briefly as possible. Firstly Belcatar, if you look closely I was not the one to stray from topic, it began with Buzz’s post referring to my admiration of Guevera, I simply replied to his post. Bismark, I have no problem with the use of propaganda against Cuba, in fact I simply pointed out the use of propaganda when I noted it can be used in a similar manner against the United States, which I agree is a tool used by Moore. Jim, apologists for Bush disgust me, I am glad you are not one. Buzz, is this simlar to the huge blackmarket of illegal drugs in America, because the government simply cannot live up to its promise to stamp out this trade.? Donna, your self righteous indignation is sickening, the treatment of blacks in your own country remains a hideous stain on history, so please do not lecture me on the rights of minorities in other countries, or individuals who supposedly uphold those rights. I will gladly apologise for my views if you are willing to apologise to the black population of America for the inhuman, hideous treatment they have received, and to a lesser degree in some cases still receive today, this is to the eternal shame of your country. I repeat, I look forward to the day, when a Gay man or Lesbian woman, a black, indigenous or female is voted leader of the free world, I will not be holding my breath however

I will gladly apologise for my views if you are willing to apologise to the black population of America for the inhuman, hideous treatment they have received.

I have never mistreated a black in my life—in fact, when I was the manager of a store, I had a greater percentage of women/blacks/Hispanics than any other store in the region.  Do I still need to apologize?

I look forward to the day, when a Gay man or Lesbian woman, a black, indigenous or female is voted leader of the free world.

Are you saying we should look to the color of his/her skin, or his/her sexual orientation, when deciding upon the leader of the free world?  That would be fairly damning to MLK’s ideals—as well as to my own.

the treatment of blacks in your own country remains a hideous stain on history, so please do not lecture me on the rights of minorities in other countries

Did you say you’re from Australia?  If so, I would like to address the issue of the indigenous population there.

Sorry, I may be slipping OT there.  Perhaps we could address the issue of the Cuban indigenous population as well.

Bismarck, the idea is NOT to look at a man or woman’s skin colour or sexual orientation when deciding on positions of power, a lesson both our countries need to learn. And yes Australia’s record of indigenous treatment is shameful, I agree. I did not mention your countries treatment of the indigenous population, that is a subject for another day. As for Cuba’s treatment of their indigenous, I would argue that they have received better treatment under a dictator not supported by the USA than they did under one who was.

Buzz, is this simlar to the huge blackmarket of illegal drugs in America, because the government simply cannot live up to its promise to stamp out this trade.?

Well, if a demand exists, a supplier can be found. The point is, if government is going to take over medical care in a country, they need to deliver. Cuba cannot. They lack the resources to do. Hence the medical black market in Cuba.

. . . the treatment of blacks in your own country remains a hideous stain on history, . . .

And the abolishment of slavery cost us over 600,000 lives . . . and should be recognized as an accomplishment.

Meanwhile, there are countries in the world (Africa and the Middle East) that still practice slavery.  By the way . . . slavery began on this continent BEFORE we became a country.

the idea is NOT to look at a man or woman’s skin colour or sexual orientation when deciding on positions of power, a lesson both our countries need to learn.

So when looking at some of our current choices, I don’t need to give special consideration to Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama?  I want to make sure I’m making my decisions correctly.  If I were to vote for the very white male Ron Paul because he reflects my beliefs, does that make me a racist or misogynist?

And yes Australia’s record of indigenous treatment is shameful, I agree.

Are Australia’s indigenous not black?  If so, do you owe them an apology for something you did not do (presuming you’ve never mistreated a black)?  Furthermore, as a white American, do I owe an apology to a black Australian?

Again, I apologize to everyone for straying OT here, I just want to ensure my propriety.

As for Cuba’s treatment of their indigenous, I would argue that they have received better treatment under a dictator not supported by the USA than they did under one who was supported by your nation.

Better check your history, Red Star.  Everyone lost their property (land) to the government.

Meanwhile, there are countries in the world (Africa and the Middle East) that still practice slavery.

There are other countries guilty of slavery as well.  I’m not sure I can address slavery in America until it is vanquished in other countries.

In your first post, Red Star, you attacked Hannity and Colmes. That was an attempt to distract us from the point Donna was trying to make. Your excuse that you were just “responding to Buzz” doesn’t hold water, because you posted before he did.

Address the point, Red Star. Michael Moore lied about the state of Cuban health care. It doesn’t matter whether it was Hannity and Colmes or, as you mentioned, Laurel and Hardy who provided the proof. The proof is in that film.

Please provide proof that Castro-controlled Cuba is not the way that footage portrays it to be. Or, quietly disappear. No wiggling out of it. No obfuscations, no changing the subject, no tap-dancing. Just provide proof. Come up with something substantial that refutes the things that I have seen provided here on this website.

Your excuse that you were just “responding to Buzz” doesn’t hold water, because you posted before he did.

I think he meant Buzzion.

Castro has in fact provided land under the proviso that it be farmed and not left idle, this land was provided to the indigenous among others, check your recent history Buzz. I would gladly apologise for the treatment of our indigenous Bismarck, yes, in fact as an act of reconciliation I would consider it a benefit for our leader to apologise on behalf of the country for our past treatment, but he has refused. And yet four weeks out from the election he has proposed a movement towards reconciliation after eleven years in power saying nothing, this proposal does not include an apology. Your other point on Clinton, Obama and Paul is just semantics, I have clarified that issue, vote for the best man or woman, despite their sexual orientation or colour. The fact remains, despite the diversions, America’s treatment of blacks is and will remain a disgrace. Mentioning Hannity and Colmes was not straying off topic, it was right on topic. Moore may have lied about Cuban health care, but watching a view videos on computer does not come close to proving anything, again, I could post some videos on American healthcare on here, or as I mentioned a thousand other aspects of American life, and have people thinking America is the ‘great satan’. Now, as usual I can see this conversation going down the path of every other conversation on here, half a dozen people keep posting till I get sick of responding, then get all excited, post pictures of Star Wars characters and say they won...something, so post away, I may respond later. And yes Buzz, sorry I meant Buzzion.

Red Star, you are a top-notch fucking idiot.  They don’t come much dumber than you.

I am totally enjoying watching this crowd intellectually bitch-slap you, though.  Please continue to type the dumbest things you can.

RedStar:

Do NOT talk to me of sickening behavior. Do NOT try to turn this discussion into a lecture about other topics. Do NOT try to move the goal posts or change the topic or any of those lovely tricks you so love to do.

This post is about the abhorrent medical conditions in Cuba and about how Michael Moore lied in Sicko about the realities of Cuban health care. This post is about the abhorrent state of the Cuban people thanks to Castro’s regime and how Michael Moore collaborated with and aided this communist, genocidal dictator by spreading Castro’s propaganda instead of the truth. This post is about and for the Cuban people who suffer in this squalor while Michael Moore trumpets to the world about how wonderful Cuba’s medical care is… and the world believes Moore’s lies and not the truth.

These things, and these things ONLY, are what this post is about. Stop trying to change the subject and deal with the reality of these matters. Look at these videos. Look at the other sites linked here. Realize that MOORE LIED. And now tell me why we should ever believe or trust anything that comes out of his mouth again.

Jim, you’re not too far behind me, nice bit of evasion on my first response to you, shithead. Donna, do you always come across as a bleeding heart who has been wronged by the evil communists.? The post is about a couple of videos and a bit of other info, so what.? I wont keep repeating myself, I could quite easily make America look like an evil empire with a few videos and some information I gather. Now Jim, how about you post a picture of Luke Skywalker and claim victory for the conservatives. I’m going to walk my dog, right now that’s a little more entertaining than sitting here reading your bullshit.

right now that’s a little more entertaining than sitting here reading your bullshit.

Lucky for you, you never have to read it again.

In fact, you never had to read it in the first place.

Just once I’d like to see someone with views like Red Star’s that could put together a cohesive logical argument.  American Blackmarket for illegal drugs?  Apologize to blacks?  Gay Presidents?  What the fuck is your point?

If Moorewatch bores you so, why the hell are you here, troll?

I don’t think he will be again. At least unless he reregisters, sounds like.

I wont keep repeating myself, I could quite easily make America look like an evil empire with a few videos and some information I gather.

Oh sure you could . . . provided your audience was still in grade school.  The rest of us might be a little more skeptical.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking everyone is as ignorant as you are . . . because that just might be . . . dare I say it . . . impossible!

i dont understand why red star is so upset. its just a tv show after all. it doesnt influence anyone’s opinion after all.

Well, if Red Star is truly not going to be able to post here anymore, then I’d like to apologize on his behalf for all persons of color who have ever been discriminated against.  Also, to any gay/lesbian/transgendered peoples who maybe have been discriminated against.  The same goes for any indigenous peoples upon any of the continents.  Also, I believe some soccer moms out there have been disparaged simply because they live in the suburbs, and to them I’d like to extend Red Star’s most heartfelt apologies: You don’t deserve the shabby treatment you get.

On a personal note, I’d like to apologize to all snow crabs across the oceans.  If only they weren’t so tasty…

I’d like to apologize to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People for referring to their members as “colored people”.

(Acknowledgements to Steve Martin)

red star
Donna, do you always come across as a bleeding heart who has been wronged by the evil communists.?

Red Star accusing DonnaK of being a “bleeding heart” and a victim is perhaps the most ironic statement that I’ve ever read here.  It takes some impressive stoopidity to make a statement like that after everything else that he’s said.

On a personal note, I’d like to apologize to all snow crabs across the oceans. If only they weren’t so tasty…

I find myself in the position of having to apologize to the cows, chickens, pigs, lamb, baby cows, salmon, bass, catfish, tuna, swordfish, buffalo and crabs that I have wronged.  I would also, in case they are sentient, like to apologize also to the fruits and vegetables, too many to name, upon which I have visited no less than a genocide these past few months.

I’m so sorry, but you all died for a good cause.  My belly.

As Red Star goes streaking into the dusk of oblivion, let us hope he comes to his senses before impact, or hope that the steady pounding he’s had impacts him in a positive way.  Fare well yea black hole of thought…